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I can see that I'm on my own in disagreeing with the advice that a woman shouldn't get drunk and would prefer more guidelines surrounding what constitutes rape and that nothing excuses it.
I'm also firmly in the camp that whilst the underlying message for the campaign is fine 'be safe', this website is not:http://www.westmercia.police.uk/safenightout/ . To be clear some of the slogans in the campaign I have a problem with are:
Don't let a night full of promise turn into a morning full of regret
Who is this even aimed at? Is it a case of 'whoops I raped someone' or is the victim supposed to feel 'regret' that they were raped? I know someone is going to respond that perhaps it's regret that they were drinking so much and therefore raped. Yet this is still putting the blame firmly on the victim. The video on the page also suggests that.
Don't let a drunken mistake be a life-long hangover
The advice underneath is aimed at the perpetrator so I can assume this nifty tagline is too. Has anyone else ever made the drunken mistake of raping someone? Trivialising it by using the word 'mistake' is baffling and putting the word 'drunken' in front of it like it's some sort of explanation is even more so.
In the same paragraph is Don't drink excessively and stay in control of your actions.
Again, re-inforcing the message that the perpetrator only committed the act because they were drunk. Don't get wasted blokes, or else you might lose control, become the incredible hulk and rape someone. Can it get it get anymore offensive?
Well yes it can. By merging something as trivial as 'regretful sex' with 'rape' is again, trivialising it. Waking up next to someone you consider 'minging' and forcing someone into sex are two different things and shouldn't even be paired up. The lazy merging continues with the unclear advice I've already mentioned. No idea why this particular force found it even remotely appropriate to lumber in advice to potential victims and rapists and not to even make the distinction as to who it's aimed at. All the same kettle of fish, hey.
That's why I think this campaign is shit.
Ditto - I can't see where I've posted that it's what you said.
It could be that as a man I don't fully appreciate the risks women face and the trauma of rape. But still I've never encountered views like these before.
I'm not addressing the posters right now although to have the very same slogan in both posters is pretty stupid.
Have I gone askew? Also if you google this campaign you will see a lot of views like mine being aired. I'm not that unique unfortuntely.
I've certainly not seen anyone have such extreme views on something which I think we might be able to agree was devised with good intentions. I'm not saying you're wrong or anything. You clearly feel passionately about the issue and I'm desperately trying to get onboard. But I simply cannot see what you are trying to point out. Or at least, I can see where you're coming from but I'm finding it hard to take the words, expressions and slogans they've used in the way you're saying. In my eyes when I read the link I saw it as good advice. After you made your points I could then see how it could be taken that way. But that 'message' is certainly not what I saw the first or second time I read it.
OK maybe I used the wrong word with 'extreme'. It's just what you're taking as the meaning behind some of the slogans is baffling me. I can't see anything on that police page that suggests rape is the fault of the woman to any degree. When you deconstructed them I can the message you feel it's giving but in no way can I agree that it's what they're implying and was initially taken aback that it's what you felt they were saying.
This is what I meant by "maybe it's because I'm a man" etc. As I have never been immediately affected by rape and the risks women face then perhaps there's an aspect of this which is being wasted on me.
Similarly here. They're not saying that nonrapist + alcohol = rapist, but that some rapes wouldn't have happened if the perpetrator wasn't drunk, which is totally not the same thing. Most men can drink lots and not become rapists but an almost-rapist could get an almostectomy after lots of it.
I confess my ignorance to such matters but speaking in a broad sense, isn't sex usually more of an emotional thing for women than men? I'm sure the after-effects for male and female victims of (for example) a mugging are less distant than for rape. I get the impression female victims of rape are affected more than men. Not saying male victims can just pull their trousers up and walk away or anything.
But I think the perception is it's somewhat worse for women.
I think this is another case where we just have to disagree. I can understand that a drunk person may behave out of character but not to the extent of raping someone. I appreciate the previous comment a poster made earlier about 'lapse in judgement' in terms of consent. But in my opinion if there is even any uncertainty around the issue of consent then a decent chap or woman would back off.
No. Why shouldn't it be equally as horrific for a man as it is a woman? Rape is still rape. Agree that sex is at least thought to be more emotionally charged for women but we aren't speaking about sex. Rape is completely different.
Just an example.
Are you seriously suggesting that certain issues aren't going to affect male and female victims differently?
Are you seriously suggesting that they should be in any way more horrific because of gender?
Answer my question first.
Really don't get what you mean by an 'almost rapist'. You have either committed a rape (rapist) or you haven't. There's no such thing.
Oh my god.
Okay. Rape affects people differently. How can you even compare? Why are you even bothering to compare?
I get murdered tonight. I'm dead.
You get murdered tonight. You're dead.
Are we affected differently? Are your parents sadder than my parents?
Really bizaare question.
If you don't get it then you don't get it. Fiend_85 does...
Despite my not actually agreeing directly with that, it's a good indication of how male and female victims of rape can be affected differently.
I agree with that. A decent person wouldn't rape another human. Drunk or not.
Good for Fiend? Maybe she can explain it better than you are right now.
What you are doing now is pondering. Which is good, it's a step forward. But that's all it is and it's completely pointless. Fiend in her infinite wisdom has decided that a woman would be better off after rape because after all she 'isn't supposed' to handle herself as well. Whilst a man, wow. If he gets raped. His masculinity suffers.
How about the idea that a victim of rape is a victim of rape. Again 'pondering' about which sex would be better off having been forced into sex is weird and frankly disturbing.
That indeed is good, it shows you're starting to understand it slightly more and open your mind a bit.
The point I was trying to make several posts back was perhaps the reason I can't see your interpretation of that link could be because I'm male. Purely as an observation I think men and women view rape differently. Not saying I think it's right, just that it's the perception. It could be as men tend to be raped less, we pay slightly less attention, I don't know.
But I think it's important to point out that you used the words 'better off', not me.
But just because men and women are supposed to be "equal" doesn't mean they are.
that doesn't stop him being a rapist, but it is a good example of where drunkenness can affect judgement.
I know the f-word have their knickers in a twist about this, but they're just being deliberately obtuse about it IMHO. Saying drunk women are more likely to be raped and that drinking too much leaves you vulnerable is not misogyny.
a conviction in court afterwards doesn't make the memory of the rape go away.
I can see that but am failing to see how you could even begin measuring or quantifying an experience like that.