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let's blame the rape victim

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Close this thread?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Some people will never understand until they are raped themselves.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Drinking less MAY make you less vulnerable and MAY reduce the risk but I find the campaign's focus on the completely normal, social behaviour of the victim unhelpful.

    I think this sums up entirely the belief that a person can do no wrong. There is nothing normal, or social about drinking to the point of unconciousness. Drinking that much leads to a loss of control, and loss of control will lead to you either becoming a victim or an offender.

    Now if it leads you to becoming a victim, of anything this isn't to say it's entirely your fault. It takes 2 to tango. But a person who is absolutely plastered makes an attractive target for any would-be criminal.

    "look at him, he can't stand up, i'll nick his phone. It'll be easy cos he won't be able to fight back".
    "look at her, she can barely keep her eyes open, what's stopping me?"

    Criminals look for easy targets and they look for opportunities. It's the same reason why burglars don't actually like breaking into houses with people inside them, they might get the shit kicked out of them. If you get pissed up, you're creating an opportunity. A drunk unconcious person is easier to attack or take advantage of than a sober one.

    Now before some random gets into a fucking fluster about what i've said, what i've said doesn't make it right. A person who preys on the weak and/or the vulnerable is scum in my eyes, a coward of the lowest order. But, we're never going to get rid of them with the weak as shit justice system we've got now. And they won't listen if we tell them not to do it.

    That leaves the victims. If we can design out the opportunities for criminals by telling people to lock their doors, to not walk around with bundles of cash in their hands, or to not get steaming drunk there is a good probability that they won't become a victim of crime. It won't stop the scumbag attacking someone else, but it will stop them attacking you. And that ladies and gentlemen is the point, you need every advantage you can get in this world. Stumbling around with your eyes barely open and sick running down your chest is a distinct disadvantage when it comes to encounters with Britain's criminal underbelly.

    By all means, get plastered. You're right, it's your choice. But always remember there are scumbags out there itching for an opportunity to do you harm.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Exactly what he said.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    Sensible things
    Aye.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    WhoWhere I agreed with a lot of what you mentioned. E.g. taking precautions against scumbags but then you say things like this which really makes me question your belief system:
    Whowhere wrote: »
    It takes 2 to tango.

    Worst use of idiom ever.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Exactly. But I have lots to gain by leaving the house, and if I do leave then I can still be careful. If I get drunk off my head, I'm pretty much absolutely incapable of being careful.

    Unfortunately I don't have the campaign's website here to refer to but I can remember that there was no clarification as to how drunk a person must be to 'lose control' or make oneself more 'vulnerable'. So all the people suggesting extremes like 'lying in a gutter passed out' or 'off their heads' are elaborating much more than that campaign cared to do.

    Also, girls all in varying states of drunkeness. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/859/drinkef.jpg/ Which one has lost control?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just to say, I read Lucky (Alice Seabold) some years back, and I'm suddenly reminded of the reaction of the police officers when she told them she was a virgin. That is to say, they didn't believe her. If it was the case that a sober, sensibly dressed virgin can be raped and then fail to get support and sympathy from the police. I can't see how anyone can expect a girl who may be promiscuous when she chooses to be, dress provocatively because she likes to, and goes out drinking because she enjoys it could to receive a sensitive and supportive reaction from the police if she is attacked on a night out.

    I will admit that Lucky was in New York, and we're talking about the UK and UK police. And while Whowhere works for the police the things he says here may have no object on the way he would behave while on duty, and that furthermore there are specially trained rape officers in the UK. Still I am worried for some reason. I don't want to derail the conversation about how to raise awareness of protecting yourself. But when the worst happens (and for the record I do actually have some experience of rape) if the attitude of your first reporting officer is poor, why would you push for an investigation and prosecution. Which leads to reasons the conviction rate is low...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm starting to think that you are exactly the kind of person that this campaign was aimed at, and are currently showing why it was so important..

    Oh please do elaborate. If you're suggesting that I'm the kind of 'moronic young women' that you just love to hate who goes out and gets drunk and god forbid has a good time, then you're sadly mistaken because I don't drink.

    But if you're suggesting that I shun the idea of personal responsability then you really haven't been reading my responses closely enough in which I go into great detail into my position on this topic. To sum it up briefly; I agree with the well-intended but clumsily put message that the campaign was trying to express: that drinking makes you more vulnerable. I disagree with that sentiment being expressed on a campaign about rape; a crime in which only 15% of rapes committed against over 16 year olds are reported.

    People have agreed on this thread that the campaign could have been done better. A serious crime like rape doesn't deserve a clumsy probe in the general direction of a 'well meaning' message. It deserves a sensitive and carefully considered message that isn't completely identical and one paragraph down from the one aimed at potential perpetrators. Some things deserve to be 'whinged' at.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    Unfortunately I don't have the campaign's website here to refer to but I can remember that there was no clarification as to how drunk a person must be to 'lose control' or make oneself more 'vulnerable'.
    What, did you expect to read a specific amount? It's not the same for everyone. It's up to you to make sure you don't overdo it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What, did you expect to read a specific amount? It's not the same for everyone. It's up to you to make sure you don't overdo it.

    Well you all seem set on a specific amount ie. comotose. My point is that this campaign isn't as specific which makes me question whether this is a campaign chiefly to target excess drinking or rape?

    In ref to the picture I posted. Which one do you think has lost control? One? None? All? The girl second from the left looks pretty 'out of it'. What if she left her friends and decided to go to the toilets by herself and was raped? Does this campaign address this girl?

    This campaign doesn't concentrate on the perhaps more convenient example of a girl passed out in a gutter with her legs up in the air. It takes an ambiguous and confusing stance on the drinking behaviours of potential victims.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    Randomgirl wrote: »
    Some people will never understand until they are raped themselves.
    Understand what exactly? (Not being sarcastic or anything, I honestly can't tell which thing you're referring to)
    Understand why someone would get off their head so much that they can't tell where they are? You can't have meant that since it's only a fraction of rapes this is relevant to.
    Understand why you should never give advice to people to lower the chance that they'll be targeted? You can't mean that either, because otherwise even more people would be raped and you definitely don't want that.
    Understand that saying "you could have avoided some of the danger" means "it's your fault"? You definitely can't mean that, as it's obviously wrong.
    Understand why someone would think the above? I totally understand that one, it's because they've been traumatised just as I have been in the past (although a lot less and for different reasons) and some phrases might "strike a chord" that they normally wouldn't strike. It can make you take some things the wrong way. Unfortunately however, that can't be avoided without refraining from giving advice.
    I honestly don't know what you meant people can't understand. Note: I'm not asking to be made to understand, I'm asking what it is that you're saying they can't.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    I think this sums up entirely the belief that a person can do no wrong.

    You're arguing here against a position that not one person in this thread has advanced. It's hyperbolic and not helpful.
    There is nothing normal, or social about drinking to the point of unconciousness.

    Broadly agree. There's certainly nothing social about it, but it's not uncommon.
    Drinking that much leads to a loss of control, and loss of control will lead to you either becoming a victim or an offender.

    Or neither.
    Now if it leads you to becoming a victim, of anything this isn't to say it's entirely your fault. It takes 2 to tango.

    Fuck me. It takes two to tango in a rape? That's either a telling slip or a fucking awful use of language.
    But a person who is absolutely plastered makes an attractive target for any would-be criminal.

    "look at him, he can't stand up, i'll nick his phone. It'll be easy cos he won't be able to fight back".
    "look at her, she can barely keep her eyes open, what's stopping me?"

    Criminals look for easy targets and they look for opportunities. It's the same reason why burglars don't actually like breaking into houses with people inside them, they might get the shit kicked out of them. If you get pissed up, you're creating an opportunity. A drunk unconcious person is easier to attack or take advantage of than a sober one.

    Agree.
    Now before some random gets into a fucking fluster about what i've said, what i've said doesn't make it right. A person who preys on the weak and/or the vulnerable is scum in my eyes, a coward of the lowest order. But, we're never going to get rid of them with the weak as shit justice system we've got now. And they won't listen if we tell them not to do it.

    They are scumbags, but I find your defeatist attitude rather worrying.
    That leaves the victims. If we can design out the opportunities for criminals by telling people to lock their doors, to not walk around with bundles of cash in their hands, or to not get steaming drunk there is a good probability that they won't become a victim of crime.

    Agree.
    It won't stop the scumbag attacking someone else, but it will stop them attacking you. And that ladies and gentlemen is the point, you need every advantage you can get in this world.

    I'm not sure how comfortable I am with the idea of scrambling over other people to ensure my own safety.
    Stumbling around with your eyes barely open and sick running down your chest is a distinct disadvantage when it comes to encounters with Britain's criminal underbelly.

    By all means, get plastered. You're right, it's your choice. But always remember there are scumbags out there itching for an opportunity to do you harm.

    Agree.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Exactly. But I have lots to gain by leaving the house, and if I do leave then I can still be careful. If I get drunk off my head, I'm pretty much absolutely incapable of being careful.

    You're going to keep crossing the road and I'm going to keep living my life- that includes getting drunk occasionally. I'm not going to stop being me because I was raped once on a night out- because quite frankly It would have happened regardless of my alcohol level. I wasnt beyond my senses and I was with friends. It was wrong place wrong time. If a person is dead set on doing that I don't think anything including an extra drink is going to stop them.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    Well you all seem set on a specific amount ie. comotose. My point is that this campaign isn't as specific which makes me question whether this is a campaign chiefly to target excess drinking or rape?
    That's not a specific amount that someone could write on paper. I wish I could see the text again (unfortunately I can't) to make sure, but I do think I remember it saying not to do it too much, and of course too much doesn't mean more than X glasses, it means based on the way it affects you.[/quote]
    In ref to the picture I posted. Which one do you think has lost control? One? None? All? The girl second from the left looks pretty 'out of it'. What if she left her friends and decided to go to the toilets by herself and was raped? Does this campaign address this girl?
    I can't tell from a photo. That could just be a funny face. If the friend left and she dropped to the floor because she couldn't be leaning on someone, then yeah. And the campaign addressed all of them, and you, and everyone. It wasn't addressed to people who are drunk, it was addressed to people who might want to be.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    smaug wrote: »
    You're going to keep crossing the road and I'm going to keep living my life- that includes getting drunk occasionally. I'm not going to stop being me because I was raped once on a night out- because quite frankly It would have happened regardless of my alcohol level. I wasnt beyond my senses and I was with friends. It was wrong place wrong time. If a person is dead set on doing that I don't think anything including an extra drink is going to stop them.
    It couldn't have prevented your case but it can prevent others. There's nothing to win by being off your face and lots to lose.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's not a specific amount that someone could write on paper. I wish I could see the text again (unfortunately I can't) to make sure, but I do think I remember it saying not to do it too much, and of course too much doesn't mean more than X glasses, it means based on the way it affects you. I can't tell from a photo. That could just be a funny face. If the friend left and she dropped to the floor because she couldn't be leaning on someone, then yeah. And the campaign addressed all of them, and you, and everyone. It wasn't addressed to people who are drunk, it was addressed to people who might want to be.

    My point with the picture is that all of this is pointless pontification. Getting drunk once in a while on a night out is completely normal and acceptable behaviour. Even for a girl. A person could rape the second girl from the left having a giggle with her friends. Or a person could rape the girl second from the right doing the chicken dance.

    It's impossible to predict what situation could happen drunk or sober. Yes being intoxicated would make more vulnerable on a night out but arguably, so would a pair of high heels. Both are risks I choose to take and are well within my right to take.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    My point with the picture is that all of this is pointless pontification. Getting drunk once in a while on a night out is completely normal and acceptable behaviour. Even for a girl. A person could rape the second girl from the left having a giggle with her friends. Or a person could rape the girl second from the right doing the chicken dance.

    It's impossible to predict what situation could happen drunk or sober. Yes being intoxicated would make more vulnerable on a night out but so arguably, so would a pair of high heels. Both are risks I choose to take and are well within my right to take.
    I don't see anything I'd disagree with here. :confused:
    Surely though, people can tell the difference between just being drunk and being "comatose", can't they? The former might make you a bit more vulnerable but no more than other things, like you say. The latter can make you the extreme opposite of invulnerable, and that's what should be avoided.
    Going back to the street example, crossing the street makes me more vulnerable to be hit by the car. Covering my eyes, blocking my ears and lying in the middle of the street dressed in clothes the same colours as the tarmac makes be much more than that, and that's the equivalent of being comatose.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There's nothing to win by being off your face and lots to lose.

    Isn't that rule applicable to everyone? So surely no one should be 'off their face', ever? To coin SM's insult; it isn't all just about us 'moronic girls'. Or is it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't see anything I'd disagree with here. :confused:
    Surely though, people can tell the difference between just being drunk and being "comatose", can't they? The former might make you a bit more vulnerable but no more than other things, like you say. The latter can make you the extreme opposite of invulnerable, and that's what should be avoided.
    Going back to the street example, crossing the street makes me more vulnerable to be hit by the car. Covering my eyes, blocking my ears and lying in the middle of the street dressed in clothes the same colours as the tarmac makes be much more than that, and that's the equivalent of being comatose.

    But why do you insist on using the 'comotose' example? The campaign didn't. 'Loss of control' is completely ambiguous and could relate to being 'tipsy' to 'drunk' to 'hammered'. Vulnerability exists across all of these states.

    I disagree with your example too.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    Isn't that rule applicable to everyone? So surely no one should be 'off their face', ever? To coin SM's insult; it isn't all just about us 'moronic girls'. Or is it?
    (Did SM really say that? Awful, I must have missed it, unless it's out of context here)
    Exactly, that advice should be for everyone. I'd have preferred it to have been aimed at everyone but I don't see an issue with aiming at the most likely victims.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My use of the phrase it takes 2 to tango obviously wasnt meant to imply that both parties are equally responsible, it was a poor choice of phrase, and not one I meant, apologies.

    I stand by everything else, I'm not a defeatist, Im a realist. There are some nasty bastards out there who aren't scared of us, aren't scared of the justice system and would fuck youre life up given half a chance. You can say you don't feel comfortable directing them onto someone else, that's your choice. Nobility won't protect you though. Making you or your property an unattractive target is your best chance of not becoming a victim of crime in any circumstance, that applies to any crime, particularly theft.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    But why do you insist on using the 'comotose' example? The campaign didn't. 'Loss of control' is completely ambiguous and could relate to being 'tipsy' to 'drunk' to 'hammered'. Vulnerability exists across all of these states.

    I disagree with your example too.
    It doesn't seem ambiguous to me really. I wouldn't know of course.
    Well, I can't help you disagreeing with my example. But the point was that raising vulnerability by 1 is different than taking it to the maximum.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    In any case I think this has gone too far from the original issue.
    I disagree that what the campaign said was wrong, but even if it was wrong and they shouldn't have said it, all you can say about it is that they didn't give good advice. At no point, ever, did they say or mean the victim should be blamed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    (Did SM really say that? Awful, I must have missed it, unless it's out of context here)
    Exactly, that advice should be for everyone. I'd have preferred it to have been aimed at everyone but I don't see an issue with aiming at the most likely victims.

    This is the quote I pulled it from:
    There is however absolutely no difference between teaching a child about stranger danger and teaching moronic young women who like going out and getting hammered about rapist danger.

    I think we can mutually agree here that the most likely victims of rape are women. Women are the prey that need to make themselves 'less vulnerable' and 'less conspicuous'. But it's okay and non-discriminatory because our male counterparts need to watch their alcohol intake as well because just like women, they may also lose control and this could result in them raping someone.

    Again, again, again. I understand the message the campaign was trying to convey but they failed. So the campaign was pulled.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    our male counterparts need to watch their alcohol intake as well because just like women, they may also lose control and this could result in them raping someone.
    Are you implying that this is wrong? It's not correct in every case of course but it definitely is in a lot of them. The video you liked with the glass pane implied the same thing.
    Apologies if you're not implying it was wrong.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think we can all see what we're trying to get across.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Are you implying that this is wrong? It's not correct in every case of course but it definitely is in a lot of them. The video you liked with the glass pane implied the same thing.
    Apologies if you're not implying it was wrong.

    The video with the glass pane didn't even mention alcohol?
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    The video with the glass pane didn't even mention alcohol?
    I thought it had, but you're right.
    In any case, if it can happen to someone who's sober it can happen more easily to someone who's drunk, do you disagree with that?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I want to point out though, a rapist is a rapist, a predator of the vulnerable. I don't think a rapist is willing to lose control. A campaign aimed at them isn't going to work.
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