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let's blame the rape victim

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
This 'campaign' was highlighted on twitter earlier http://www.westmercia.police.uk/safenightout/

Thoughts?

Pretty disturbed by the whole thing. Pairing 'rape and sexual assault' with 'regretful sex' is not on. As is the tagline 'Don't let a drunken mistake be a a life-long hangover'. I didn't realise a bottle of WKD blue was capable of sexual assault. Silly me.
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Comments

  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    I don't think they're blaming the victim. It seems to me to be the equivalent of saying "Lock your house's door when you go out". It won't be your fault if they rob you but it's a good idea to try and make it more difficult.

    Also, the tagline you mention is addressed to a possible rapist (or at least abuser), not a possible victim. It basically says "You might think it's ok, but it's really not".
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I accept that drinking excessively makes everyone more vulnerable, male or female. But the campaign as well as the video stink of victim blaming and how much 'regret' the victim feels for drinking as if it's their fault.

    Also the tagline doesn't seem at all clear because both of the messages directed at would-be victim and would-be rapist carry the message 'Don't drink, because something could happen that you could regret'. Ultimately removing the responsability away from the rapist if they happen to be drunk. Oh and you might just lose your job *wag finger*.
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,169 Skive's The Limit
    Drunk people are significantly more likey to be a victim of crime, so advice to drink less is not bad advice
    You are also more likely to commit crime when drunk, and again advice to drink less is not bad advice.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote: »
    Drunk people are significantly more likey to be a victim of crime, so advice to drink less is not bad advice
    You are also more likely to commit crime when drunk, and again advice to drink less is not bad advice.
    Don't drink excessively and stay in control of your actions.

    Who is this advice aimed at?
    Because if it's aimed at potential victims I find it upsetting because no means no. Whether I am drunk or not.
    But if it's aimed at someone thinking of commiting a rape I find it offensive because being drunk is not a get out of jail card for raping someone.

    edited to add: the advice you've suggested just then is clear but this campaign is simply bad. Because it isn't clear, the video perpetuates the idea that the victim has something to 'regret'. The word 'regret' is pretty sketchy. Am I supposed to 'regret' being raped? Is the rapist supposed to 'regret' raping somebody? Alcohol has a lot to answer for. So it seems
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Seems to me like they're warning guys not to take it too far.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    Oh and you might just lose your job *wag finger*.
    To be honest, if you're going to address would-be rapists I think this kind of thing would be more effective than "It's vile"/"You'd really hurt a person emotionally" which would be replied to with "Yeah right"/"So what?". I don't think they care about others' feelings.
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,169 Skive's The Limit
    But the campaign as well as the video stink of victim blaming and how much 'regret' the victim feels for drinking as if it's their fault.

    What woudl you have it say? Being drunk increase your chances of becoming a victim of crime significantly and anybody that's had a night on the town knows alcohol enables us to do things we might regret.

    Advice to drink less in case you end up with minger, std or end up being sexually or physically assaulted is good advice for both men and women,
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm with Skive. I don't see anything wrong with what they've said.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So should the fact that a rapist was drunk when he committed the act be taken into account?

    Or should the fact that the victim was drunk when they were raped be taken into account?

    Should either of these affect the outcome of a court case?

    Because this is what this particular police force are perpetuating.

    Pretty surprised at the responses so far.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    I don't think this specific article is saying any of these things.

    I agree it shouldn't come into court cases if you're asking that, but I don't see anything in the article that says the opposite.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think they're perpetuating anything. They're asking people to take care of themselves.

    I don't think anyone can argue that you're safer when you're sober.

    And frankly, it does affect a court case. If you get really drunk your memory is affected, how can you be sure what was or was not said and done if you've got your entire weekly allowance of booze swimming in your veins.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think this sort of campaign is very sensible. There are certain things women can do to lessen the chances of being raped and I think to suggest this means that to avoid this advice somehow puts some of the blame on the woman is very, very cynical. My daughter is far too young to go out on her own but when she gets to that age I'll be giving her advise on how to be safe and look after herself. Am I suggesting that without this knowledge I'm apportioning some sort of blame on her for any subsequent attack? Not at all.

    Someone women might (for example) be under the impression that rape only occurs in the street etc and therefore might let her guard down in a club or somewhere else it could happen. That sort of information on the police website would go some way to making things safer for such women.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote: »
    I don't think they're perpetuating anything. They're asking people to take care of themselves.

    I don't think anyone can argue that you're safer when you're sober.

    And frankly, it does affect a court case. If you get really drunk your memory is affected, how can you be sure what was or was not said and done if you've got your entire weekly allowance of booze swimming in your veins.

    This is why rape convictions are low. I agree with the advice in theory like I keep stating. Being drunk makes you more vulnerable. I get that. But the That's the disturbing thing of this campaign is that it is unclear and that it seems to be directed at both victims and perpetuators. Like they are both equally reprehensible. Whether the victim or the rapist were drunk has no bearing on the crime being committed. Meaning: it's no defence to get drunk, rape someone and then claim that you werent in control.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No of course not, otherwise they wouldn't be warning guys not to get drunk and rape someone.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think this sort of campaign is very sensible. There are certain things women can do to lessen the chances of being raped and I think to suggest this means that to avoid this advice somehow puts some of the blame on the woman is very, very cynical. My daughter is far too young to go out on her own but when she gets to that age I'll be giving her advise on how to be safe and look after herself. Am I suggesting that without this knowledge I'm apportioning some sort of blame on her for any subsequent attack? Not at all.

    Someone women might (for example) be under the impression that rape only occurs in the street etc and therefore might let her guard down in a club or somewhere else it could happen. That sort of information on the police website would go some way to making things safer for such women.

    GQ I completely get that. But the messages are so askew. They seem to be directed at both the victim AND the perpetrator.

    I think it's sensible to teach your daughter not to drink to excess, watch her drink in a bar etc. But it's also sensible to teach sons (the majority of rapists are male) and daughters not to rape or sexually take advantage of anyone. Or yknow just fall back on 'you could lose your job' as this campaign does, weakly.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    If I understood correctly, you're complaining about the article lumping both kinds of advice together?

    If that's it, I agree that it could and should have made a clearer distinction. I don't think it's that bad as it is, however.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, that's offensive enough. But also it isn't upto the potential victim to prevent rape. Rape can happen anywhere, in a nightclub, at home, in a park. It isn't dependent on what you're wearing. It can happen when you're sober or drunk. The only person that can prevent a rape from happening is the rapist. But it's easier to blame the behaviour of the victim, whether or not they were intoxicated, what they were wearing. Let's focus on that.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    They're not blaming anything though. Yes, it can happen anywhere but in some cases you can make it more difficult to happen. I don't see any trace of blaming the victim in that article at all, any more than (to repeat my example from earlier) "Lock your door when you go out" means you'll blame the house owner if they don't.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Of course it does.

    What kind of message do you think

    Did you know, if you drink excessively, you could leave yourself more vulnerable to regretful sex or even rape?

    is sending to a woman who has been a victim of rape on a night out? That it's her fault. Cos that's the message I'd get from it
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Which is understandable if you've been raped. It's a major trauma. If I never got in a car, I'd never been in a car crash, that doesn't mean that because I drive if there's an accident I brought it on myself.

    Rapists, when attacking a drunk woman, probably just picked an easy mark. They do it for power, as I understand it.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    "Don't forget to lock your door" might make someone who didn't and already got robbed feel bad too. And with a worse crime you get worse feelings. It still doesn't mean it was their fault, that's just how they might interpret it due to their less-than-perfect psyche at the moment.

    But that's not addressed to victims, it's addressed to people who aren't victims. How would you rephrase it so that it says the same thing but doesn't make someone who's already a victim think that?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wouldn't. I think it's ridiculous telling women (because let's face it, this is who the campaign is aimed at) not to get drunk because you may just get raped. And it's almost adequately as offensive suggesting the same to men because they might 'lose control' and oops, rape someone.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    I wouldn't. I think it's ridiculous telling women (because let's face it, this is who the campaign is aimed at) not to get drunk because you may just get raped.
    So you'd let someone who might not have realised it continue without ever realising it, and run the risk that they'll become a victim when if you had told them they might not have been? Why give advice for preventing any crime then, if it will make people who are already victims feel bad or (worse) that it's their fault?
    btw, even if you did that it still wouldn't be your fault or theirs.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote: »
    Which is understandable if you've been raped. It's a major trauma. If I never got in a car, I'd never been in a car crash, that doesn't mean that because I drive if there's an accident I brought it on myself.

    Rapists, when attacking a drunk woman, probably just picked an easy mark. They do it for power, as I understand it.

    Fiend I agree with that analogy, especially the last part.

    Rapists pick easy marks. Victims that are drunk, that have the audacity to walk around in jeans, that are married to them, that are standing in the corner of a street. Rape could happen to anyone and whilst I agree being intoxicated does make you more vulnerable to attack from anyone. Less concentration and potential for blame needs to be placed on the completely normal behaviours of victims, and more so on the person committing the rape.

    This campaign in all it's ugliness and insensitivity fails to even distinguish between the victim and the rapist. Citing the main reason for the crime even being committed is because of alcohol consumption. And I disagree with that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So you'd let someone who might not have realised it continue without ever realising it, and run the risk that they'll become a victim when if you had told them they might not have been? Why give advice for preventing any crime then, if it will make people who are already victims feel bad or (worse) that it's their fault?
    btw, even if you did that it still wouldn't be your fault or theirs.

    Nope. I'd do similar to GQ and tell my daughter that there are nasty people and stupid people in the world. I'd tell her to be careful when crossing a road, to never get into the car of a stranger, to be careful when drunk.

    Not to avoid crossing roads, speaking to strangers ever and definitely not to get drunk because it could (it probably will...it might just be the final straw..) lead to rape.

    It's not the behaviour of victims that needs policing, it's the perpetrators.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    Nope. I'd [...] tell my daughter [...] to be careful when drunk.

    Not to [...] not to get drunk because it could (it probably will...it might just be the final straw..) lead to rape.
    When someone drinks over a certain limit (which depends on the person and other factors) they can't be careful any more. So first they have to be careful and not drink so much that they pass that limit. I assume you'd tell her that too, just as the article does ("if you drink excessively...").

    And now think about less good parents who don't tell these things to their children. Who'd tell them, then?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    When someone drinks over a certain limit (which depends on the person and other factors) they can't be careful any more. So first they have to be careful and not drink so much that they pass that limit. I assume you'd tell her that too, just as the article does ("if you drink excessively...").

    And now think about less good parents who don't tell these things to their children. Who'd tell them, then?

    There is a difference between telling someone to be careful and suggesting that the main reason of rape is dependent on the amount of alcohol consumed by both the victim and the rapist. Rather than, let's say the rapist wanting to rape someone that day.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I would have thought that a man who is tempted by the concept of rape, would be unable to prevent himself for overstepping the mark if he were drunk.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote: »
    I would have thought that a man who is tempted by the concept of rape, would be unable to prevent himself for overstepping the mark if he were drunk.

    No way. Everyone has self control, drunk or not. It isn't like a sneeze, or suddenly barfing everywhere. It's having sex with someone against their will.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    There is a difference between telling someone to be careful and suggesting that the main reason of rape is dependent on the amount of alcohol consumed by both the victim and the rapist. Rather than, let's say the rapist wanting to rape someone that day.
    I don't see it suggesting it's the main reason for anything.
    And the second part of the article (again, they're badly lumped together and shouldn't, but that's an entirely different issue than advice on drinking) is addressed to some people who could become rapists without thinking they are and, for that group, might make a difference. It's not applicable to everyone who can be a rapist nor is it supposed to be. I don't think there's anything you could say to someone who wants to rape someone that day (as opposed to someone who wants sex and thinks something isn't rape when it is) that could stop them.
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