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let's blame the rape victim

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    Of course being sober can be preventative.

    Really? Sober people don't rape or become victims of rape?
    The whole problem with this topic is that whilst some of us are advocates for self-control, others are advocates for doing whatever you feel like because it's your right to, lets just find someone else to blame.

    Great. In that one line you have just made Clementine's point for her. With you a serving officer too. Shame on you.

    If you are drunk, and get raped, then no-one but the rapist is to blame. It really is that simple. Sure, being sober might have meant that you didn't put yourself into a dangerous position in the first place but the fact remains that the rapist still took advantage of that.

    The only person to blame for committing a crime is the criminal.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Education should also play a part in this. It's all very well having the simple (yet obviously correct) message "don't rape" but some people won't listen purely because they don't like being told what not to do. For example we are told to not speed. We're told to not commit benefit fraud, and plenty of other things but many still do these things, usually because they don't realise the consequences and see them as 'victimless'.

    Now obviously I'm not comparing the crime of rape to that of speeding etc but the principle of the perpetrator is often the same. They see little or nothing wrong with it, consider it 'victimless' ("she just needed a good f***ing to loosen her up" etc) or think they can get away with it. This could also apply (as politically incorrect as it is) to those from certain cultures where women are viewed as second class citizen with few if any rights.

    Recently a tv campaign showed a bloke raping a woman whilst another image of himself watched what was happening from behind a glass wall. The 'rapist' version of himself obviously got on with it, seemingly oblivious to her protests whilst the 'watcher' was banging on the glass shouting at 'himself' to stop. I found that to be particularly effective.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru

    The fact remains that saying "You should be careful" is in no way saying "If you aren't, it's your fault".

    I would like that to be completely clear in this set of adverts, which it isn't, hence the contention.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Recently a tv campaign showed a bloke raping a woman whilst another image of himself watched what was happening from behind a glass wall. The 'rapist' version of himself obviously got on with it, seemingly oblivious to her protests whilst the 'watcher' was banging on the glass shouting at 'himself' to stop. I found that to be particularly effective.

    I did too.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Really? Sober people don't rape or become victims of rape?



    Great. In that one line you have just made Clementine's point for her. With you a serving officer too. Shame on you.

    If you are drunk, and get raped, then no-one but the rapist is to blame. It really is that simple. Sure, being sober might have meant that you didn't put yourself into a dangerous position in the first place but the fact remains that the rapist still took advantage of that.

    The only person to blame for committing a crime is the criminal.

    Ding ding, we have a winner!
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    katralla wrote: »
    I would like that to be completely clear in this set of adverts, which it isn't, hence the contention.
    It seems entirely clear to me. That's where the disagreement is, I guess.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Really? Sober people don't rape or become victims of rape?



    Great. In that one line you have just made Clementine's point for her. With you a serving officer too. Shame on you.

    If you are drunk, and get raped, then no-one but the rapist is to blame. It really is that simple. Sure, being sober might have meant that you didn't put yourself into a dangerous position in the first place but the fact remains that the rapist still took advantage of that.

    The only person to blame for committing a crime is the criminal.



    Way to miss the point.

    From reading my previous posts you should know I was talking about accidents e.t.c. as an answer to can being sober be preventative which is why I gave a real life example of something I have come across.
    Not once have I said a rape victim is to blame, so shame on you for putting words where they aren't.

    ALL I have said is you are less likely to become a victim of crime/accident or less likely to be a perpetrator of a crime if you are sober.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I guess it depends what message you're trying tobget across. The don't go out and rape someone message, or the be aware that getting ratvarsed makes you much more vulnerable to something bad happening and you'll likely want to kick yourself for putting yourself in that position.

    It's entirely possible for someone to regret an event that is not their fault.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    How can we blame someone else for them sticking their dick in someone without consent though? Like, oh shit - I drank too much, that's my fault, arrest me and stick dicks in me without consent? Er no, I think the ideal we should be advertising towards is "Don't rape people."


    Again, missing the point I was making. I'm an advocate for self control. When you lose self-control there is a greater risk of an event with negative consequences happening. Some of those consequences will be entirely out of your control, such as being assaulted or raped, and NOT ONCE have I said anyone but the criminal should be blamed for that.

    The point I was making before you rudely assumed I was being an asshat was that most of the negative consequences can be avoided. Things like passing out on a park bench, or in a puddle of your own sick. Stumbling out into traffic, glassing people in the face, going back with someone or doing something else YOU would regret.
    Some things are down to personal choice, and my intepretation of the adverts was that if you make a personal choice that is severely clouded by the effects of alcohol, chances are it won't be a good choice.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Would just like to chuck some fuel on this fire by pointing out that drinking safely and responsibly doesn't necessarily just mean staying sober. It might mean getting totally shitfaced if you want to, but making sure you stay in a group, watch out for each other and make sure no one person is vulnerable...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Has anyone here ever had a productive discussion on rape?

    As whowhere rightly points out, people come at it from different angles. That doesn't mean that everyone is right. It doesn't mean that everyone is wrong, either. In fact, everyone could be right whilst simultaneously holding seemingly contradictory positions.

    But in my experience whenever there is a discussion on rape, unless everyone is coming from the same perspective, everyone ends up getting defensive and annoyed or upset. It's almost like people want to be offended, so go out of their way to misinterpret what other people say.

    Either you think someone is saying you're a slapper asking to get raped if you so much as walk outside, or conversely you think that someone is arguing that they should be able to go to the most dangerous area in town, eat some temazepam with a vodka chaser, pass out and then need not have any concern at all for their own wellbeing - as that's other people's responsibility.

    Both are comical exaggeration and misrepresentations of what might otherwise be good arguments.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kaff wrote: »
    Would just like to chuck some fuel on this fire by pointing out that drinking safely and responsibly doesn't necessarily just mean staying sober. It might mean getting totally shitfaced if you want to, but making sure you stay in a group, watch out for each other and make sure no one person is vulnerable...

    It's a very fair point. I'm fairness it probably also means having some in that group who either retain their sense of judgement whilst shitfaced, or who don't get as hammered.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Has anyone here ever had a productive discussion on rape?

    As whowhere rightly points out, people come at it from different angles. That doesn't mean that everyone is right. It doesn't mean that everyone is wrong, either. In fact, everyone could be right whilst simultaneously holding seemingly contradictory positions.

    But in my experience whenever there is a discussion on rape, unless everyone is coming from the same perspective, everyone ends up getting defensive and annoyed or upset. It's almost like people want to be offended, so go out of their way to misinterpret what other people say.

    Either you think someone is saying you're a slapper asking to get raped if you so much as walk outside, or conversely you think that someone is arguing that they should be able to go to the most dangerous area in town, eat some temazepam with a vodka chaser, pass out and then need not have any concern at all for their own wellbeing - as that's other people's responsibility.

    Both are comical exaggeration and misrepresentations of what might otherwise be good arguments.

    Absolutely, this happens with just about every online discussion I've ever seen on rape and this one is no exception.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    At least no-ones called anyone hitler yet.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think I'm largely with ShyBoy on this one: rape is one of those emotive topics prone to hyperbole.

    I'd be interested to know what the stated aim behind the campaign in question was. If it was simply "we want to reduce the number of rapes" then asking people to not make themselves vulnerable seems like a fairly sensible way of going about things. I don't think its corollary is that the rapist isn't entirely to blame. I appreciate it doesn't tackle the larger questions of why people rape and how to stop them, but maybe that's asking a bit much.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    I would like that to be completely clear in this set of adverts, which it isn't, hence the contention.

    Thankyou lordy.

    I still can appreciate people's views about making yourself less vulnerable by being wary about how much you drink but this set of adverts doesn't deliver that one clear, message. What they're doing is being offensively lazy by using the exact same wording to both victims and the attacker. ie. Dont do something you're gonna *regret*.

    Already pointed out that it's unhelpful to even suggest that being raped is something the victim should 'regret' because it directs blame to the victim.
    And with regards to the rapist, the word 'regret' trivialises rape itself. I regret eating too many strawberry bon bons - I regret forcing myself sexually on another person and raping them. Hm

    .. Have they got rid of that website and campaign now? Tried clicking it but it isn't found.. Maybe they are actually revising it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Thankyou lordy.

    I still can appreciate people's views about making yourself less vulnerable by being wary about how much you drink but this set of adverts doesn't deliver that one clear, message. What they're doing is being offensively lazy by using the exact same wording to both victims and the attacker. ie. Dont do something you're gonna *regret*.

    Already pointed out that it's unhelpful to even suggest that being raped is something the victim should 'regret' because it directs blame to the victim.
    And with regards to the rapist, the word 'regret' trivialises rape itself. I regret eating too many strawberry bon bons - I regret forcing myself sexually on another person and raping them. Hm

    .. Have they got rid of that website and campaign now? Tried clicking it but it isn't found.. Maybe they are actually revising it.
    Let's hope they are revising it. I have just been reading this thread until now as I tend to find this type of thing very upsetting. I agree that it's unhelpful to suggest you should 'regret' being raped as it is not the survivors fault.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    Randomgirl wrote: »
    Let's hope they are revising it. I have just been reading this thread until now as I tend to find this type of thing very upsetting. I agree that it's unhelpful to suggest you should 'regret' being raped as it is not the survivors fault.
    Except that this is not what it said at all? I can't see it now but IIRC it said something like "...you might have a night you'll regret or get raped".
    If I say "Be careful running with the scissors, you might break a vase or stab yourself" I'm not saying that they're equally bad outcomes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Randomgirl wrote: »
    Let's hope they are revising it. I have just been reading this thread until now as I tend to find this type of thing very upsetting. I agree that it's unhelpful to suggest you should 'regret' being raped as it is not the survivors fault.


    I'm not sure you can avoid the regret in some cases. We are talking about the dangers of drinking in this thread, so I would have thought if you got drunk, and then were raped you'd have some heavy regret like issues.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote: »
    I'm not sure you can avoid the regret in some cases. We are talking about the dangers of drinking in this thread, so I would have thought if you got drunk, and then were raped you'd have some heavy regret like issues.

    Perhaps. But to use the word 'regret' so freely on a poster aimed at victims of rape without any other explanation as to what they actually mean is at its best irresponsible and damaging.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think if you'd examine the general psychology of being a rape victim there'd be a lot of self blame as well. Thinking about it, it'd be a good reason to avoid it on posters aimed at women.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Unfortantly it has a massive stigma attached to drinking as a lot of girls blame it on this for example my sisters friend got drunk and ended up sleeping with someone in the toilets, sobered up and was humilated so blamed it on her being "raped" the other guy involved was so shocked and hurt at being called a "rapist" when he clearly wasn't but a lot of girls find that an easy way to stop a mistake and make them seem innocent that it will be attached.

    But you'll find worser things like Judge Wild stated, 'If she doesn't want it, she only has to keep her legs shut', and Judge Sutcliffe directed a jury to be sceptical about a rape victim's evidence, saying, 'It is known that women and small boys are liable to be untruthful and invent stories.' and another women whose car broke down so she tried to get help was told she was guilty and it was her own fault she was raped.

    It's just a part of life everyone will have their own views like people think Muslims are angry and violent when some are but not like every other person on other!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Perhaps. But to use the word 'regret' so freely on a poster aimed at victims of rape without any other explanation as to what they actually mean is at its best irresponsible and damaging.

    Quick reality check?

    At what point is there anything to suggest that this poster is aimed at victims of rape? Pretty much by definition surely it's aimed at preventing people becoming victims of rape.

    I'm hope the anti campaign people are pleased, it looks like they've succeeded in getting a shocking and hard hitting campaign about the dangers of going out and getting hammered taken down. Well done. Definitely a good result there then.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But only men rape and only women are raped innit.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Quick reality check?

    At what point is there anything to suggest that this poster is aimed at victims of rape? Pretty much by definition surely it's aimed at preventing people becoming victims of rape.

    I'm hope the anti campaign people are pleased, it looks like they've succeeded in getting a shocking and hard hitting campaign about the dangers of going out and getting hammered taken down. Well done. Definitely a good result there then.

    You're right but let's not pretend its 'hard hitting' message of the dangers surrounding drink and therefore a 'regrettable' evening isn't going to offend anyone including victims of rape.

    I am pleased, very pleased. Let's hope a clearer, less idiotic campaign replaces it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yup - I'm sure it will. A far more sensitive, far less contraversial, and far less noticeable or memorable campaign.

    Definite win there.

    Contrary to popular belief, there's nothing wrong with offending people occasionally if there's a good reason behind it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yup - I'm sure it will. A far more sensitive, far less contraversial, and far less noticeable or memorable campaign.

    Definite win there.

    Contrary to popular belief, there's nothing wrong with offending people occasionally if there's a good reason behind it.

    Not sure perpetuating the idea that the victim is somehow to blame is a good idea.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not arguing that it is - but neither am I agreeing that this campaign particularly does.

    I fail to see a way that you can put across the message that going out and getting hammered is making yourself very vulnerable, without someone claiming that you're perpetuating the idea that the victim is to blame.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Interesting choice of words in the statement from the police.

    I really do think it's a shame that the campaign has been pulled.
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