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let's blame the rape victim

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In an ideal world being drunk wouldn't affect your chances of being a victim of crime, but unfortunately it's not an ideal world.

    I don't think the advice "don't drink so much you don't know where you are, it increases your chances of getting raped or mugged" is particularly obnoxious advice.

    I also don't think the advice "don't drink so much you lose your inhibitions and forget what no means" is particularly obnoxious advice either.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It is though. Why should women modify or abstain their behaviour in order to avoid getting raped and accomodate the notion that they are avoiding the 'threat'. When the real threat is from the rapist.

    I guess ultimately women will always be seen as prey and therefore are obliged to act in a way that reduces the risk from harassment and assault.

    Which I find the saddest fact of all.

    edited to add: the campaign suggests that drink is something that makes victims vulnerable whilst also suggesting it's a get out clause for those poor potential rapists that seem unable to 'stay in control of your actions'. Double standard?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Drunk people, of either gender, are more vulnerable. Putting yourself in a position where you are so vulnerable is foolish. It doesn't matter whether you're a woman at risk of sexual assault or a man at risk of muggings and physical assault, the same facts apply. If you get paralytic you put yourself in a vulnerable position, and that is a foolish thing to do. It's common sense.

    That's not the same as saying someone deserved to be raped because they were hammered. But when you're seriously drunk you're a) less able to defend yourself and b) more likely to put yourself in a vulnerable position in the first place.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes but by calling it 'foolish' you're still laying some of the blame on the victim, whether you like it or not. It isn't foolish to get hammered. It seems to be a right of passage for most. That means that everytime you've got drunk, it's been foolish. But I guess it isn't as 'foolish' as a woman getting drunk and 'making herself' vulnerable.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not talking about having a drink. I'm talking about getting so pissed you cannot walk, you cannot talk and you cannot remember anything. I'm talking about people in Newcastle on a Saturday night who are so hammered that they fall over in the street and spend ten minutes rolling around on the floor.

    Even if the worst thing that happens to you is you get an unexplained bruise on your thigh, that's still pretty stupid.

    It depends what you mean by blame. Does being drunk mean you consent to sex? No. But does being drunk mean you're more likely to be carried off by the rapist, who everyone thinks is your boyfriend? Yes.

    There's a reason why rapists target extremely drunk women. Pointing this fact out is not defending the fucking patriarchy.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm really confused by your measurement of being drunk. So, it's sensible enough for a woman to be tipsy and/or drunk? Yet a woman getting completely hammered is a no no and being 'pretty stupid'? The argument on that campaign poster mentions zilch about how drunk a person is. It just states 'drink safely and responsibly'. It's a shame that it isn't as clear as you are about how much a woman should drink in one evening to be at less risk from being raped. But it isn't being that clear, is it?

    Another edit sorry: Surprised that you haven't pointed out the campaign's attitude towards potential rapists needing to limit their own alcohol consumption thus 'not staying in control of your own actions'. Pedalling out the ole' 'I was drunk and therefore not culpable' excuse used by many that commit a rape.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You're confusing various things to get yourself angry about something you don't need to.

    Firstly, anyone has a responsibility to look after themselves. Nobody is going to do it for them. Drinking responsibily is part of that. You don't put your credit card details on an unsecured website because you're powerless to stop someone using them fraudulently. I'm not comparing rape to credit card theft but the same principles apply: look after yourself because nobody else will.

    Secondly, when two parties are very drunk consent can be an issue. Inhibitions do get lost. Some people genuinely do think that no means yes, or the fact that the lass is passed out doesn't matter. They probably wouldn't have made that decision sober. That doesn't "justify" being a rapist, but again there's nothing wrong in pointing out that getting so drunk you don't know who you are is dangerous.

    I completely agree that rape is something men do, and that being drunk isn't an excuse for doing it or a reason to blame someone who has it done to them. We should be able to get legless in safety, just as I should be able to leave my front door unlocked without getting burgled. But that's not how life works and reminding people to look after themselves is really quite fair, to be honest.

    Is it really so very different from telling kids not to talk to strangers?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you don't want to become a parent, wear a condom?

    I don't think that this campaign "justifies" rape in any way. nor does it offer being drunk as an excuse. In fact it's saying the exact opposite.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Firstly from me: Urgh.

    We really seem to be going off on a tangeant because I don't think you're addressing the actual campaign poster. Which is what I have the problem with.

    I'm all for advocating personal responsability but drinking even to excess is not a crime. Rape is.

    I do have a problem with the analogy you used because a woman is not a credit card number. She isn't some sort of incitement to commit rape or a would-be crime scene.

    Maybe we should be extra cautious and tell women not to wear short skirts or snog a man she has no intention of having sex with? Why is there a shift in view towards a man so inebriated that apparently he 'doesn't know who he is?'. People still have choice and free will when drunk. Alcohol doesn't suddenly turn you into a rapist.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you don't want to become a parent, wear a condom?.

    :confused:

    if you don't want to get raped..don't get drunk?

    Have you ever been drunk?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    From what I can see of them the campaign posters seem very reasonable.

    If you drink too much you may very well do things you regret - like trusting that man you've never met before to buy you blue WKD and then get you home safely.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    From what I can see of them the campaign posters seem very reasonable.

    If you drink too much you may very well do things you regret - like trusting that man you've never met before to buy you blue WKD and then get you home safely.

    or raping someone.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's the second poster - yes, if you drink too much you may misjudge someone's responses and engage in activities that a court decides were non consensual.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, but alcohol does screw with your inhibitions and your judgement. It's not an excuse nor a defence, just an observation. Bear in mind, of course, that most victims already know their rapist.

    My point was that if you do not take steps to look after yourself then someone will take advantage of you. That is life. It doesn't make it any more palatable but it is entirely reasonable to point this out. The example I'm thinking of is the woman I saw a month ago rolling around in the street drunk, short skirt hiked up and everything on show. She didn't know who she was, where she was, why she was. She would have been in no fit state to remember, never mind defend herself, if someone had tried to take advantage of that situation. That doesn't make raping her right or make her "to blame" for being raped, but there comes a point when you have to point out that she'd not be rolling around the Bigg Market with her foof out if she'd been sober.

    Will you be telling your child not to talk to strangers? Well then.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I guess it's easy to misjudge someone saying 'no please stop' and trying to get away when you're intoxicated.

    Remind me never, ever to post on here if I am the drunken victim of rape. Ever. Because I'd be the 'foolish' one for getting drunk or a comparison would be drawn to leaving my credit card number lying around or my 'door unlocked'. Ho ho ho. Genuinely shocked. Night
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It that's how you define rape, then it is unreasonable.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    (the suggestion that being drunk might cloud your judgement enough to rape when you are an otherwise decent person would be unreasonable - not your definition of rape is unreasonable)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh give over. Just because you got a debate you don't like.

    People will take advantage of vulnerability. Always have, always will. Getting so drunk that you cannot stand up- as so many people do- leaves you with a massive vulnerability. You can neither fight, flight nor recall afterwards if you cannot even walk.

    Alcohol screws up judgement. It can mean that you perceive the passed out girl to be consenting, even if she blatantly cannot. Pointing this out, and saying that the police will not accept it as an excuse, is entirely reasonable again.

    Keep yourself safe because no bugger else will do it for you is an entirely sensible message. There are rapists, pickpockets, thieves, thugs. Don't make it bloody easy for them by lying passed out in a doorway, eh?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If only it was as clear cut as being passed out

    but if you did drink so much you passed out, and someone took advantage of that it wouldn't be your fault - you would have been reckless to have done so but the blame lies entirely with the abuser
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,240 Skive's The Limit
    If you think that it's unfair to have to modify you're actions to protect yourself from other people you're right, it is unfair. But that's how it is. This is not a perfect world.

    It is undeniable that if you get drunk you are more likely to be a victim of crime or do something you may regret, and so advice not to get so drunk you don't know what your doing is good advice.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm really struggling to see the problem with the campaign.

    Yes, in an ideal world some people might think it would be great to be able to go out in town, to take absolutely zero responsibility for their own safety. This campaign is focussed on rape and sex you wouldn't have had sober - but the principles apply to all behaviour. Going out and getting so drunk you don't know what you're doing is putting yourself in a very vulnerable position. If you're so drunk you can't stand up then you're making yourself a really attractive target to someone who's gone out that night with the intention of raping someone. Equally, if you get so drunk you don't really know what you're doing any more, then you're much more likely to go home with the random stranger you've just met, who've you now decided is the greatest guy you've ever met and you want to spend the rest of your life with. Following morning, in the cold, sober light of day you can't actually remember whether or not you were up for it or said yes.

    That's not an uncommon tale from a night out - the question is what actually happened behind that night? Because of the state of the two people involved, it's potentially going to be impossible to know. There are many options though:

    1. Girl and guy went home together. At the time both were keen for sex. Have sex - both still keen on the idea. Both fall asleep, one goes home in the night. Later the next day, neither really knows for sure the details of what actually happened. There's no crime there, but the guy has put himself at risk of being accused of rape. This wouldn't be a malicious allegation necessarily, just deluded.

    2. Guy and girl set off home together, guy takes this as a sign she's definitely up for it. Girl is very drunk, and very sleepy. Guy is very drunk and very horny. They get cosey and get into bed together. Girl never explictly says 'yes I'd like to have sex with you' but is leading the guy on. She passes out/falls asleep whilst things are well on their way and the hammered guy doesn't actually notice as she's on the bottom. He commits rape without actually realising what he's doing.

    It's not always as clear cut as you think. Not every rape is committed by a premediated rapist. This is one of the points I think the campaign is trying to make, but has clearly completely passed you by.
  • *Holly**Holly* Moderator Posts: 140 Settling in
    Hey everyone :wave:

    It's really interesting this topic has come up. Here at TheSite we've been doing extensive work on our rape and sexual assault advice over the past few weeks to ensure it best supports people who may come to us in crisis - or people who just want to know more about these issues.

    Through this work we spent a lot of time talking to Rape Crisis workers and other experts.

    One of the new articles we've created is this - Rape Myths - which may be of interest to some of you. Just thought I'd chuck it into the mix as some of it relates to things you've been chewing over.

    Right, I'll let you get back to it. :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    *Holly* wrote: »
    Hey everyone :wave:

    It's really interesting this topic has come up. Here at TheSite we've been doing extensive work on our rape and sexual assault advice over the past few weeks to ensure it best supports people who may come to us in crisis - or people who just want to know more about these issues.

    Through this work we spent a lot of time talking to Rape Crisis workers and other experts.

    One of the new articles we've created is this - Rape Myths - which may be of interest to some of you. Just thought I'd chuck it into the mix as some of it relates to things you've been chewing over.

    Right, I'll let you get back to it. :)


    'Myth 10' from that is something that would have worried me. I'm entirely different now but 10 or 15 years ago I was a male slapper. My 'Russell Brand' period as one of my mates called it.

    I'm not exactly a 'babe-magnet' or whatever the right expression is. Ok I don't scare animals and small children but I've always used my humour to get me by when it came to women.

    My concern was if I ended up with a woman who whilst sober would not look at me twice. If we went back to her place, did the deed but when she woke up took one look at my 'Coyote Ugly' face and figured the only way we could have had sex would have been if I'd taken advantage of her whilst she was off-her-face and too drunk to protest (regardless of whether that was the case), I'd be in trouble

    I've never been the type to try it on if a woman was too drunk to say no, drugged up or made it clear the answer was 'no'. I know the law now states something along the lines that if a woman is drunk and still consents to sex the man can be prosecuted for rape. OK I can kind of see the intentions behind that but in the situation I gave above, I could have been prosecuted as a rapist.

    Totally unfair on me.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The law has never changed. It's always been a two part test: did the man reasonably think the woman consented and, if so, did the man reasonably think she was capable of giving that consent. If the woman is off her face but says hop on big boy, then really no rape prosecution is going to happen, never mind succeed. But if the woman is semi-conscious and you do the deed anyway, then you're on much more dodgy ground. And quite rightly too.

    It isn't rocket science to say that a gentleman, faced with a woman who is semi-conscious through alcohol or drugs, should simply tuck her up in bed and get a taxi home. But sadly sometimes men who are themselves very drunk don't quite think of it that way, thinking that if the woman went home with him and is now aroused it really means yes, because the alcohol has screwed up their judgement.

    Of course it doesn't mean yes, and should never mean yes, but that is what the police press release is on about.

    The law, by the way, also states that being intoxicated is not a defence to rape, unless you were intoxicated involuntarily. The trial case involved a man who was drugged and had sex with a non-consenting 14-year-old boy; he didn't know he'd been drugged and so was acquitted. The judge made it abundantly clear that if he'd willingly taken those drugs he'd have been convicted.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Point taken however just because someone isn't a 'Gentleman' does not make him a rapist or someone with dishonorouble intentions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I was being slightly facetious with the term. If a woman falls asleep or is semi-conscious because of drink, then trying to have sex with her does make one a rapist.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh yeah absolutely, no questions there.

    My point is when a woman wakes up and thinks "There's no way I'd have willingly has sex with him so he must have forced it on me or waited until I was too drunk to say no".

    I can't say that sort of thing is likely to happen often but at the time it was something I used to think of.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I kinda get what you mean, the poster "Beer! Helping ugly people have sex since 1862!" is funny because its true.

    That's kind of the other point about drinking too much though. Even if the sex is consensual, people who are drunk are more likely to do stupid things: cheat, forget to use condoms, see everyone as stunning. Judgement goes out of the window, or it can do.

    Facing a false allegation of rape is a risk you take with any one night stand, but it's incredibly rare, despite the Daily Heil's protestations. The false reporting rate for rape is around 2%, which is the same as for any other similar types of crime.

    In that sort of situation most women would just wake up and shudder about what they were thinking. Generally you know if you consented to something or not, even if you later wished you hadn't.

    The line isn't that fine. If the girl can take her clothes off and pull you on top of her, she's consenting. If she's spark out on the bathroom floor after taking the porcelain bus for a testdrive, then chances are she's not.

    What does happen, though, is that a man will get into bed with the woman, who promptly falls asleep or passes out. His own drunken horniness will matter more to him than the woman's consent and he'll have sex with her anyway. That's not even a slightly grey situation, even if she was aroused: it is rape.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Agree with all of that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :confused:

    if you don't want to get raped..don't get drunk?

    Have you ever been drunk?

    The problem with emotional arguments like this, is that someone gets offended by comments and then takes things out of context and proportion.

    You should know us well enough by now to know that none of us believe that being drunk is justification for rape. It certainly isn't a defence to say "well she was drunk", look back at the history of threads here and you will see both Arctic and I abusing people for putting forward that position.

    However, that doesn't mean that advice *not* to get drunk - where you sense of danger is reduced - is a bad thing. It's good advice. In the same way that locking your doors is, like wearing a condom is, like not smoking is. Advice is just that, advice.

    If you chose to get drunk and are then raped, do you really think this police force wouldn't investigate and prosecute? If you are drunk and rape someone, do you think that they would say "oh well old boy, never mind, just don't drink like that again"?

    Of course they won't. The advert even used the image of a bloke in a cell FFS. It also suggests that victims of assault should contact them.
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