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let's blame the rape victim

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I didn't mean to offend anyone and I apologise if I have.

    I can see that I'm on my own in disagreeing with the advice that a woman shouldn't get drunk and would prefer more guidelines surrounding what constitutes rape and that nothing excuses it.

    I'm also firmly in the camp that whilst the underlying message for the campaign is fine 'be safe', this website is not:http://www.westmercia.police.uk/safenightout/ . To be clear some of the slogans in the campaign I have a problem with are:

    Don't let a night full of promise turn into a morning full of regret
    Who is this even aimed at? Is it a case of 'whoops I raped someone' or is the victim supposed to feel 'regret' that they were raped? I know someone is going to respond that perhaps it's regret that they were drinking so much and therefore raped. Yet this is still putting the blame firmly on the victim. The video on the page also suggests that.

    Don't let a drunken mistake be a life-long hangover
    The advice underneath is aimed at the perpetrator so I can assume this nifty tagline is too. Has anyone else ever made the drunken mistake of raping someone? Trivialising it by using the word 'mistake' is baffling and putting the word 'drunken' in front of it like it's some sort of explanation is even more so.

    In the same paragraph is Don't drink excessively and stay in control of your actions.
    Again, re-inforcing the message that the perpetrator only committed the act because they were drunk. Don't get wasted blokes, or else you might lose control, become the incredible hulk and rape someone. Can it get it get anymore offensive?

    Well yes it can. By merging something as trivial as 'regretful sex' with 'rape' is again, trivialising it. Waking up next to someone you consider 'minging' and forcing someone into sex are two different things and shouldn't even be paired up. The lazy merging continues with the unclear advice I've already mentioned. No idea why this particular force found it even remotely appropriate to lumber in advice to potential victims and rapists and not to even make the distinction as to who it's aimed at. All the same kettle of fish, hey.

    That's why I think this campaign is shit.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    On the poster for women, it doesn't mention rape...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I was going to address some of the points you raised there individually but it's starting to frustrate me a bit. How you're managing to reach some of your conclusions is totally baffling me. I get that you disapprove of the campaign and it could well be that it was devised by men but I am struggling to see how you're getting to those views.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Where am I suggesting it's devised by men?? You've baffled me now
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Where am I suggesting it's devised by men?? You've baffled me now

    Ditto - I can't see where I've posted that it's what you said.

    It could be that as a man I don't fully appreciate the risks women face and the trauma of rape. But still I've never encountered views like these before.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend:
    I'm also firmly in the camp that whilst the underlying message for the campaign is fine 'be safe', this website is not:http://www.westmercia.police.uk/safenightout/ . To be clear some of the slogans in the campaign I have a problem with are:

    I'm not addressing the posters right now although to have the very same slogan in both posters is pretty stupid.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I was going to address some of the points you raised there individually but it's starting to frustrate me a bit. How you're managing to reach some of your conclusions is totally baffling me. I get that you disapprove of the campaign and it could well be that it was devised by men but I am struggling to see how you're getting to those views.

    Have I gone askew? Also if you google this campaign you will see a lot of views like mine being aired. I'm not that unique unfortuntely.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Have I gone askew? Also if you google this campaign you will see a lot of views like mine being aired. I'm not that unique unfortuntely.

    I've certainly not seen anyone have such extreme views on something which I think we might be able to agree was devised with good intentions. I'm not saying you're wrong or anything. You clearly feel passionately about the issue and I'm desperately trying to get onboard. But I simply cannot see what you are trying to point out. Or at least, I can see where you're coming from but I'm finding it hard to take the words, expressions and slogans they've used in the way you're saying. In my eyes when I read the link I saw it as good advice. After you made your points I could then see how it could be taken that way. But that 'message' is certainly not what I saw the first or second time I read it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I really don't think my views are extreme at all. I do agree there are good intentions behind the campaign but the two posters and the page I linked to are falling ridiculously short in dealing with such a sensitive issue.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I really don't think my views are extreme at all. I do agree there are good intentions behind the campaign but the two posters and the page I linked to are falling ridiculously short in dealing with such a sensitive issue.

    OK maybe I used the wrong word with 'extreme'. It's just what you're taking as the meaning behind some of the slogans is baffling me. I can't see anything on that police page that suggests rape is the fault of the woman to any degree. When you deconstructed them I can the message you feel it's giving but in no way can I agree that it's what they're implying and was initially taken aback that it's what you felt they were saying.

    This is what I meant by "maybe it's because I'm a man" etc. As I have never been immediately affected by rape and the risks women face then perhaps there's an aspect of this which is being wasted on me.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    Again, re-inforcing the message that the perpetrator only committed the act because they were drunk.
    Have you heard that phrase, "A butterfly flapping its wings in China might cause a tornado in Kansas" or something like that? Well, that phrase is wrong. The small wind generated by a butterfly's wings can't spring up a tornado out of nothing, but it might be a necessary factor in the tornado's creation. It can't create it alone but all the other factors won't make a tornado without the butterfly.
    Similarly here. They're not saying that nonrapist + alcohol = rapist, but that some rapes wouldn't have happened if the perpetrator wasn't drunk, which is totally not the same thing. Most men can drink lots and not become rapists but an almost-rapist could get an almostectomy after lots of it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Although you're less at risk from rape, being a man doesn't mean you're unable to understand the full depravity of rape and the affect it has on its victims. Not at all.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Although you're less at risk from rape, being a man doesn't mean you're unable to understand the full depravity of rape and the affect it has on its victims. Not at all.

    I confess my ignorance to such matters but speaking in a broad sense, isn't sex usually more of an emotional thing for women than men? I'm sure the after-effects for male and female victims of (for example) a mugging are less distant than for rape. I get the impression female victims of rape are affected more than men. Not saying male victims can just pull their trousers up and walk away or anything.

    But I think the perception is it's somewhat worse for women.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Have you heard that phrase, "A butterfly flapping its wings in China might cause a tornado in Kansas" or something like that? Well, that phrase is wrong. The small wind generated by a butterfly's wings can't spring up a tornado out of nothing, but it might be a necessary factor in the tornado's creation. It can't create it alone but all the other factors won't make a tornado without the butterfly.
    Similarly here. They're not saying that nonrapist + alcohol = rapist, but that some rapes wouldn't have happened if the perpetrator wasn't drunk, which is totally not the same thing. Most men can drink lots and not become rapists but an almost-rapist could get an almostectomy after lots of it.

    I think this is another case where we just have to disagree. I can understand that a drunk person may behave out of character but not to the extent of raping someone. I appreciate the previous comment a poster made earlier about 'lapse in judgement' in terms of consent. But in my opinion if there is even any uncertainty around the issue of consent then a decent chap or woman would back off.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I would have thought the opposite. A man who got raped would feel completely emasculated, at least women "aren't supposed" to be able to handle themselves without training. but a man, how could he have allowed it to happen, is it because he's secretly gay etc...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I confess my ignorance to such matters but speaking in a broad sense, isn't sex usually more of an emotional thing for women than men? I'm sure the after-effects for male and female victims of (for example) a mugging are less distant than for rape. I get the impression female victims of rape are affected more than men. Not saying male victims can just pull their trousers up and walk away or anything.

    But I think the perception is it's somewhat worse for women.

    No. Why shouldn't it be equally as horrific for a man as it is a woman? Rape is still rape. Agree that sex is at least thought to be more emotionally charged for women but we aren't speaking about sex. Rape is completely different.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    I think this is another case where we just have to disagree. I can understand that a drunk person may behave out of character but not to the extent of raping someone. I appreciate the previous comment a poster made earlier about 'lapse in judgement' in terms of consent. But in my opinion if there is even any uncertainty around the issue of consent then a decent chap or woman would back off.
    An almost-rapist isn't a decent person. He'd be someone who, perhaps, if he wasn't drunk wouldn't rape the other person but would start shouting at them for changing their mind, thinking that they didn't have the right to change their mind (which they might not even have done, but that could be his perception) and he's the "victim" there. Add alcohol to that, and instead of shouting they say "Who cares" and go ahead.
    Just an example.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No. Why shouldn't it be equally as horrific for a man as it is a woman? Rape is still rape. Agree that sex is at least thought to be more emotionally charged for women but we aren't speaking about sex. Rape is completely different.

    Are you seriously suggesting that certain issues aren't going to affect male and female victims differently?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Are you seriously suggesting that certain issues aren't going to affect male and female victims differently?

    Are you seriously suggesting that they should be in any way more horrific because of gender?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Are you seriously suggesting that they should be in any way more horrific because of gender?

    Answer my question first.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    An almost-rapist isn't a decent person. He'd be someone who, perhaps, if he wasn't drunk wouldn't rape the other person but would start shouting at them for changing their mind, thinking that they didn't have the right to change their mind (which they might not even have done, but that could be his perception) and he's the "victim" there. Add alcohol to that, and instead of shouting they say "Who cares" and go ahead.
    Just an example.

    Really don't get what you mean by an 'almost rapist'. You have either committed a rape (rapist) or you haven't. There's no such thing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Are you seriously suggesting that certain issues aren't going to affect male and female victims differently?

    Oh my god.

    Okay. Rape affects people differently. How can you even compare? Why are you even bothering to compare?

    I get murdered tonight. I'm dead.
    You get murdered tonight. You're dead.

    Are we affected differently? Are your parents sadder than my parents?

    Really bizaare question.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    Really don't get what you mean by an 'almost rapist'. You have either committed a rape (rapist) or you haven't. There's no such thing.
    I coined up the term. The person I described there could be one of them. The point is that a decent person doesn't turn into a rapist but someone who isn't decent could.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh my god.

    Okay. Rape affects people differently. How can you even compare? Why are you even bothering to compare?

    I get murdered tonight. I'm dead.
    You get murdered tonight. You're dead.

    Are we affected differently? Are your parents sadder than my parents?

    Really bizaare question.

    If you don't get it then you don't get it. Fiend_85 does...
    I would have thought the opposite. A man who got raped would feel completely emasculated, at least women "aren't supposed" to be able to handle themselves without training. but a man, how could he have allowed it to happen, is it because he's secretly gay etc...

    Despite my not actually agreeing directly with that, it's a good indication of how male and female victims of rape can be affected differently.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I coined up the term. The person I described there could be one of them. The point is that a decent person doesn't turn into a rapist but someone who isn't decent could.

    I agree with that. A decent person wouldn't rape another human. Drunk or not.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you don't get it then you don't get it. Fiend_85 does...



    Despite my not actually agreeing directly with that, it's a good indication of how male and female victims of rape can be affected differently.

    Good for Fiend? Maybe she can explain it better than you are right now.

    What you are doing now is pondering. Which is good, it's a step forward. But that's all it is and it's completely pointless. Fiend in her infinite wisdom has decided that a woman would be better off after rape because after all she 'isn't supposed' to handle herself as well. Whilst a man, wow. If he gets raped. His masculinity suffers.

    How about the idea that a victim of rape is a victim of rape. Again 'pondering' about which sex would be better off having been forced into sex is weird and frankly disturbing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What you are doing now is pondering. Which is good, it's a step forward. But that's all it is and it's completely pointless. Fiend in her infinite wisdom has decided that a woman would be better off after rape because after all she 'isn't supposed' to handle herself as well. Whilst a man, wow. If he gets raped. His masculinity suffers.

    That indeed is good, it shows you're starting to understand it slightly more and open your mind a bit.
    How about the idea that a victim of rape is a victim of rape. Again 'pondering' about which sex would be better off having been forced into sex is weird and frankly disturbing.

    The point I was trying to make several posts back was perhaps the reason I can't see your interpretation of that link could be because I'm male. Purely as an observation I think men and women view rape differently. Not saying I think it's right, just that it's the perception. It could be as men tend to be raped less, we pay slightly less attention, I don't know.

    But I think it's important to point out that you used the words 'better off', not me.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I just want to point out I was vocalising societal views/norms.

    But just because men and women are supposed to be "equal" doesn't mean they are.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think you're taking rape to be where someone is pinned down and assaulted with violence. it isn't always. the man who sees his one night stand pass out and chooses to have sex with her anyway is a rapist, but drunkenness can- and does- stop the usual alarm bells from going off in his head.

    that doesn't stop him being a rapist, but it is a good example of where drunkenness can affect judgement.

    I know the f-word have their knickers in a twist about this, but they're just being deliberately obtuse about it IMHO. Saying drunk women are more likely to be raped and that drinking too much leaves you vulnerable is not misogyny.

    a conviction in court afterwards doesn't make the memory of the rape go away.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote: »
    I just want to point out I was vocalising societal views/norms.

    But just because men and women are supposed to be "equal" doesn't mean they are.

    I can see that but am failing to see how you could even begin measuring or quantifying an experience like that.
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