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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend 85: Do you believe yourself that all the evils of the world are attributable to original sin?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    yes, that ultimately things go wrong because humans are inherrantly in error
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    yes, that ultimately things go wrong because humans are inherrantly in error

    My biblical knowledge is sketchy so please bear with me.

    So freewill isn't infact a gift but a repercussion of original sin?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, "freewill" (inverted commas because it's not an accurate premise) is the same now as it was before.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    No, "freewill" (inverted commas because it's not an accurate premise) is the same now as it was before.

    Again bear with my sketchy knowledge.

    In biblical terms, Adam, while in the Garden of Eden was following Gods will. When he chose not to, original sin was commited (which we all inherit), and was then cast out of the Garden of Eden. As we all have original sin we also inherit the freewill aspect?

    Or is it the case that the freewill was always there but we weren't supposed to use it?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, as human nature was with Adam, so it essentially is with everyone. Roughly.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Yes, as human nature was with Adam, so it essentially is with everyone. Roughly.

    So Adam had the option of freewill, as he evidently used it. Yet he was supposed not to use it?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is where the freewill model breaks down. It's a lot more complicated than that. Though, to skip all the theory and go to the end product.

    All things happen to glorify God, God is given more glory by the fall from perfection and rescue back to perfect creation, than by creation just being perfect all the way through. Ultimately, this is a difficult concept (believe me I struggle with it). Because it begs the question "is God's glory really worth it?" as far as I'm concerned, the answer is yes. And before anyone says that I only think that because I've had a cushy life, you're wrong.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why does God want glory? It seems a bit egotistical to me.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It is rightly deserved, and yes, it is extremely egotistical, but because it's Him, it's justified egotism.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    This is where the freewill model breaks down. It's a lot more complicated than that. Though, to skip all the theory and go to the end product.

    More complicated how so? Surely free will is either there or it isn't. Again PM me if you like as i think we're taking this topic off on a tangent.
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    All things happen to glorify God, God is given more glory by the fall from perfection and rescue back to perfect creation, than by creation just being perfect all the way through. Ultimately, this is a difficult concept (believe me I struggle with it). Because it begs the question "is God's glory really worth it?" as far as I'm concerned, the answer is yes. And before anyone says that I only think that because I've had a cushy life, you're wrong.

    So in lamens terms all the evil and suffering that happens in the world as a consequence of original sin is in the name of the glory of God. Doesn't this bother you?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    It is rightly deserved, and yes, it is extremely egotistical, but because it's Him, it's justified egotism.

    See, I don't get this. If God exists and created the world and is perfect and all the rest of it, why does he expect glory and praise? It all seems a bit vain, egotistical and narcissistic.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    See, I don't get this. If God exists and created the world and is perfect and all the rest of it, why does he expect glory and praise? It all seems a bit vain, egotistical and narcissistic.

    But then isnt that judging God by human standards, something that probably doesnt really work.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    But then isnt that judging God by human standards, something that probably doesnt really work.
    Exactly.

    CptCoatHanger, history is a result of a combination of pre-destination ie God's will, and election, ie free-will.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    But then isnt that judging God by human standards, something that probably doesnt really work.

    OK, I get that. But if we can't judge him by human standards (presumably he is better than us etc), why is he so concerned with praise from humans? Its bizarre.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Again, you're looking at things from a human perspective. I don't pretend to be able to understand God, but that's what the deal is.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Exactly.

    CptCoatHanger, history is a result of a combination of pre-destination ie God's will, and election, ie free-will.

    So freewill / election is only around when God decides not to impose his will?

    Doesn't that really negate freewill as it's something that can be taken away.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    indeed.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    indeed.

    I don't mean to come across as arrogant, it's just the questions that are coming into my head. I'm genuinely interested.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    i know hitting a child on the head with a brick is wrong
    Why?

    There must be some absolute truth in the world.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Again, you're looking at things from a human perspective. I don't pretend to be able to understand God, but that's what the deal is.

    Seems rather unfair to me.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Anyone who demands praise and worshipping in order to grant access to Paradise, regardless of whether the person has been good all their lives, is clearly NOT a perfect being and suffers from egotism/narcissim. Claiming that we cannot judge God by human standards simply doesn't wash.

    By any standards of good and bad, right and wrong, any person who live their lives helping others and being a good Samaritan should have just as every right to enter 'Heaven' as a good Samaritan who has also spent their lives signing the praises of God.

    If God is the faultless, perfect being some claim he is, at least.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Claiming that we cannot judge God by human standards simply doesn't wash.

    God is not human.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    CptCoatHanger wrote:
    Doesn't that really negate freewill as it's something that can be taken away.
    We all have free will and a conscience that allows us to make choices, whether to live a life in accordance with Our Lord's teachings, or to live a sinful life. The former gives our etrenal souls the opportunity to possibly reside one day in Heaven, the latter gives us eternal pain in Hell.
    You make your own choices.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The Matadore wrote:
    God is not human.

    On the contrary, our concept of god is very human. How could it be otherwise?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Rich Kid wrote:
    We all have free will and a conscience that allows us to make choices, whether to live a life in accordance with Our Lord's teachings, or to live a sinful life. The former gives our etrenal souls the opportunity to possibly reside one day in Heaven, the latter gives us eternal pain in Hell.
    You make your own choices.


    Blah! Blah! Blah!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Rich Kid wrote:
    We all have free will and a conscience that allows us to make choices, whether to live a life in accordance with Our Lord's teachings, or to live a sinful life. The former gives our etrenal souls the opportunity to possibly reside one day in Heaven, the latter gives us eternal pain in Hell.
    You make your own choices.

    What about sociopaths who don't have a conscience?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The Matadore wrote:
    God is not human.
    So? He has suppossedly given us certain values. Altruism is certainly one of them. Not being a self-obsessed egomaniac is being another.

    In conclusion, anyone who is an egomaniac cannot be perfect, be human or deity.

    So clearly God isn't a perfect being. Either that or he never intended for us to worshipping throughout our lives, and we have just been sold that by the organised religions of this world.

    Which one will it be?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    On the contrary, our concept of god is very human. How could it be otherwise?

    How is an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being human?? :confused:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Rich Kid wrote:
    We all have free will and a conscience that allows us to make choices, whether to live a life in accordance with Our Lord's teachings, or to live a sinful life. The former gives our etrenal souls the opportunity to possibly reside one day in Heaven, the latter gives us eternal pain in Hell.
    You make your own choices.
    Regardless of your prejudices and hatred for certain groups, guess where you're going if you don't renounce to your wealth and love of money...

    Start stocking factor-10,000 suntan... You're going to need it.
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