If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨
Options
Essential support for under 25s
Essential support for under 25s
Take a look around and enjoy reading the discussions. If you'd like to join in, it's really easy to register and then you'll be able to post. If you'd like to learn what this place is all about, head here.
Comments
Where does love fit into that, which of the five senses is that triggered by?
I never said it did. You did. You were the one who raised mutual consensus etc, so it seemd to be logical to ask when and where. Following it now?
Not at all. you have an untenable position, but my words weren't working, so I am using yours.
How, specifically?
I can see the sun, it is indeed bright and yellow. please point out to me the colour of citizenship.
The facts are that there are no countries but lots of people assume there are and then act accordingly. Stop wasting my time pretending that people aren't just pretending and that there are countries.
How, specifically?
I don't believe that. It's just a fact. You can alter substance from one thing to another but unless you are talking advanced nuclear shit then you don't create fuck all. Are countries nuclear then?
Where specifically in your body do you feel your country? In your head? your hands? Your legs? Where?
Even you don't think this is true. If it was then you couldn't make a "country" out of anywhere, could you.
You didn't answer my questions as they were written, doing so would be good.
Depends on the individual. If you would like to know how someone creates love ask them, it's pretty easy to find out. VAKOG works on 100% of the people I have used it with.
Nope. They can think they can though, and provided other people agree they will be safe in their delusion.
It's another useful fiction. Unfortunately memes like this are at their most damaging when they are blindly believed in.
i don't believe that...you're trying to say humans don't have intrinsinct ownership qualities
Maybe it is you who is wrong, and even if you are right, what difference does it make if no one believes a word you are saying.
As for when and where, in most cases there wasn't a meeting between people when a contract was signed, as you know very well. Countries aren't formed like that.
LOL!
Er... by being born, specifically.
Colour?
Are you feeling alright?
The facts are that there are countries and you are the only person in the entire world who claims different. But clearly you are Right and we are Wrong, oh your Lordship.
By consensus, agreements (though sometimes reached by force), by uniting a common identity, heritage and culture.
*makes note to self to save the above paragraph as apparently the message hasn't got through yet*
:rolleyes:
There have been countless things created by man. If you choose to ignore that then be my guest.
In the same place where I feel love.
I don't see why not.
I've done so a million times.
So, do you believe abstract art exists or not? Are you going to go the way of Rich Kid and avoid the question for weeks on end? Regardless of whether you think I'm answering right or wrong, at least I am answering your questions.
Ok let me get this straight. Countries exist because of mutual consensus, agreements etc, but there has never been a place and time when that consensus and agreement was reached?
You bring it up every time. - here you do it again. -
Agreements through force aren't. If a common heritage is essential for a country, then why is there no "elvis" nation? he has many fans with a common culture etc If things exist with a common heritage but no country, then they cannot be needed for a country to exist. They must be incidental.
You can only have heritage etc once the border has been drawn, as it's based on the arbitary illusion that a country is. So it's incidental to the country.
So a child without a birth certificate is a citizen? Can people be citizens without beng born within the fictional borders of the "country"? If they can then that can't be what makes them citizens.
Belief doesn't change facts, sorry. When everyone thought the world was flat it didn't make it so, everyone thinking that there are countries doesn't make it so either.
No there haven't. There have been countless things reformed by man but none ever created.
Which bit of it? The physical stuff is there, sure.
What difference does it make? Well as it's the basis of all "state" power, maybe quite a bit. The delusion of country is to the state what the flat earth was to the church.
You're not all that hot on science are you.
First law of thermodynamics.
The First Law of Thermodynamics states the following: The total amount of energy in our universe, or in any isolated part of it, remains constant. Furthermore, energy can be transformed from one form into another, but it cannot be created and cannot be destroyed.
Basically you cannot create or destroy anything, only change it's form. Which i am sure is what I said.
If you are arguing that all matter is mearly energy and changes only form then perhaps you could give us your feelings on string theory?
Is it really that difficult to grasp?
It could be, if they organised themselves well enough, segregated, created their own borders, secured them and eventually reached an agreement with the rest of the original country.
Have you heard of the Balkans?
Er no, the people and the place can have heritage etc. The country is created to encompass all of that.
In theory yes but without a birth certificate/registration it prove rather tricky for them to enjoy a number of rights/benefits. And yes, others who were not born there can become citizens of their country of residence, if they meet certain criteria which varies from country to country.
It's not that difficult to grasp is it? I'm sure even you were aware of this...
No, man can change and create facts. Man have created independent, fully functioning countries. If one person (i.e.) you doesn't like it still doesn't change the fact that countries exist and are very much real. And no amount of foot stomping is going to change this I'm afraid.
Countries exist. Art exist. Love exists. Airplanes exist. Washing machines exist. Etc etc etc ad infinitum.
How about the abstract part of it (i.e. the artist creating a piece of art out of some wegded nuts and bolts)?
No, you transfered the energy from the sulphur into heat, light and smoke. Total exchanges are always equal.
String theory is bollox, top to bottom. It's all made of the same stuff, moving at different speeds to create the differnt qualities we know and love. Halfwit physicists misunderstood relativity.
Really? how do youy know?
No, you said that a group with mutual "culture" was a country. i pointed out that this isn't always the case, and so must be incidental to it. In fact, you can have a country where large parts have NO shared culture, so culture isn't relevant to the existence of a country.
That fictitious area with imaginary borders? yes of course.
So the place isn't the country then?
No, if you want it too, yes, yes, yes.
In the head of the viewer, nowehre else. And they are entitled to have their delusions, just not to force me to join in.
Not always but it often plays a major part. As I have explained to you before, there are many contributing factors to be considered.
Real area with real borders to everyone else. Imaginary to you and you only.
Yes it is.
Ah so man can create things.
Will you make your mind up?
Just as the entire world has delusions that countries exist, eh?
I thought so.
And I am dismissing the idea of coutries a point at a time, that's one down. We now know that a shared culture isn't a part of a country, so what other reasons do you have for saying that there is one?
We have already dismissed the agreement and consensus arguments, as you cannot substatiate your claims in any way shape or form.
Real how? If i drive towards "scotland" there isn't a frigging forcefield or blue glow to let me know when i am in "scotland" it looks just the same as "england".
If the place is the country, then how come the place was there before the country? Because the "country" is an arbitary, imaginary distinction present nowhere in the real world.
No, but those things can exist. It's not the same at all.
Seriously, apart from the "feeling" that countries exist, do you have any other proof whatsoever that I can sense?
for the hundred and twentieth millionth time, mutual consensus/ agreements between its people and that of other countries.
Do you really have that serious a reading comprehension problem?
Have we really? That's news to me and everyone else who is reading this thread... :rolleyes:
As it has been pointed out to you many times, just because you cannot feel or touch something it doesn't mean it's real.
Try again.
Er.. no. The country was created by man after the place.
Do you enjoy going round in circles or something?
May I suggest a drive through this:
It looks like your kind of thing.
Er.. yes it is. And earlier you said man cannot create things, only transform them.
Make your mind up.
Yes. You can see the international borders drawn on a map. Or you can feel the paper in which it is all written down and explained to you (for instance, an encyclopaedia or a history book, or even your passport).
Good enough?
What was the first country? if it's defined by agreements with other countries, then you are saying that they have always been there, which MUST be false. Because you admit -
So, how do you make a country? You cannot tell me when and where a country was made, as you cannot point to any example of mutual agreement or consensus. Btw, does an agreement made by your grandfather have any power over you?
I was thinking the same thing.
And i asked for a list of those things which exist but which cannot be sensed in any way. I am still waiting.
By making art you take raw materials and transform them into new shapes, at no point do you have less stuff in the world or more stuff in the world. So, you don't create anything, you transform it from one form to another.
It comes down to this I think. You think that there is more than the physical world. I don't. If I can't sense it, it ain't there.
so you don't believe we live on the planet earth then, there must be exceptions to your theory of countries then, you must believe in Australia, Greenland, Indonesia, there are no fictious borders surrounding them
Other places with natural boundaries such as islands would have had different origins of course.
Is that a little bit clearer?
You're getting supremely tedious.
Here: Spain , created in 1580 and in its present form since 1640.
Now I suggest you spend some time researching and reading the wonderful wikipedia.com, or any other source of knowledge of your liking, before you make any further silly claims.
But not to worry- I'm sure you'll find another loophole to pick up at- whether it be that you cannot 'sense' a country or that since the police cannot protect you 24 hours a day and return any stolen stuff, you are therefore not a citizen and therefore countries don't exist either (LOL).
You can wait as long as you want. It has bugger all to do with the argument of whether countries "exist", and in any case I've already told you I can sense my country. Case closed.
Wrong. Bolts and nuts in a box don't constitute art. Bolts and nuts assembled in a certain way do constitute art.
Aluminium and fossil fuel in their initial state don't constitute a flying machine. But man has used this materials to build, to create airplanes.
Etc etc etc etc...
Unfortunately you are neither God nor the ultimate decider of what exists or not. You have already changed your own rules from whether an individual can sense something to whether you can sense something, with regard to whether something exists or not. Everyone else in the world appear to have no problem sensing other things, so it would appear that you have a sensory problem, rather than the rest of the world imagining things that don't exist.
Clear as mud. Countries are man made inventions, this much you say but you can't tell me how they are made or give any details.
You must have the wrong link. That goes on about spain like it exists already.
It assumes that the Iberian kingdoms existed. They couldn't have. It also assumes that one man can call into existence borders etc, which is fine, he can for him at the time, but what's that got to do with me?
Wrong. you decide if something is art, it;'s a property of your perception, not of an object. Like colour etc.
You can, I can't. Therefore you are delusional. See a shrink.
That isn't creation, it's formation.
Yeah, ok. :rolleyes:
Sorry mate i missed it.
Here we go -
Of course we are on the earth, going around the sun, but it's all one big experience, indivisible. I know that the ground is there, but all the names for it, the borders etc are all imposed fictions and found nowhere in the real world.
Correct. Well done. You choose to see a table and it's there. in fact a lot of your early years are spent learning common perceptions so you can operate usefully in the world. the world itself is one great big blob though, and those perceptions are put on top of it by your mind.
Theres a big difference between seeing a table and firewood. The table as opposed to a country has the advantage of having a physical presence though. What a country is an attempt to do is to mentally mark off areas of a table like that distinction actually exists, which is of course quite feasible to get people to behave as though there are marks on the table that can't be seen. It's not true, it's not a fact, and it's not always useful. It's an optional perception, an opinion.
what about Australia though, it's land mass, someone called is Australia
well maybe you're right, but don't you think that how we see things, and how perfect life is that it all just becomes real?
And if they want to see it that way then fine, all I ask is that they don't foist there delusion or reality onto other people. You are saying "australia" like it's seperate from the water that laps on to it's beaches, that the distinctions you are amaking are present in the world.
Don't really folow you there mate, sorry.
nah i'm just saying that isn't it just really weird how we can look at a table and just think table, don't think of how it got there or all the other shit we've been debating, it's just a table, and even now you reading this post, makes sense so perfectly, maybe it just makes it all real...(that sounds really hippy and far out)
yeah, it takes you a long while to learn to automatically respond in the various ways that you do. Once you learn them you do it straight away and it IS really useful. You learn how to open one door, and whenever you see anything similar you can apply the same principle and get the same result. You see a wod and you "know" what it means.
The problem lies when you are doing this stuff automatically and you have made a mistake. It's where a lot of problems come from, both personal and political. The country one is a biggie in the political arena, because
1) Few people are aware of it.
2) It causes massive cognitive dissonance and resistance when the truth comes out.
3) It disempowers the average man or woman and puts all power into the hands of a few individuals and will do so over and over again til it's sorted.