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Try telling that to klintock
I'm stull trying to work out how this would work with a Crusade-era ship. Did they have explosives?
I reckon you could make a case for the 600 Spartans who defended the pass at Thermopylae being the first recorded suicide squad...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae
Wood burns, doesn't it?
Okay any other things that both exist and aren't real?
Fighting to the death, rather than surrendering, is not the same as suicide. After all there always remains a chance, however small, that the enemy will decide that the cost isn't worth it and run away. Not the same with explosive belt.
Though as an aside I've always loved the quote:
Go tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here, obedient to their laws, we lie
Frankly I don't care about that any more than I care about the egg/chicken argument. I was just telling you that countries exist, and to say otherwise doesn't make a lot of sense.
However if you intend to walk between, say, the territory known as USA and the territory known as Canada and a border patrol stops you and demands documents and visas, I'm sure you can explain all of the above to the guard and convince them that since countries don't really exist there is no need for documents, visas or border controls.
There is no evidence for pain. Or for thoughts. Or for imagination. Or for desire. So nothing of that really exists either. Right?
As you know well I was referring to the lack of a physical barrier.
Presumably China must almost exist in your book, since they have a good solid tangible Wall across much of its border.
Normally I'd agree with you but in this case there were 170,000 Persians facing 600 Spartans - there really was only one outcome.
...And Kermit, yes wood burns, but how do you turn a burning ship into a means of killing 1000 people in a water-based environment?
I've got one. And some tip-ex. You are now in the people's republic of legoland. Of course I don't have armed men and a school system to force feed you my delusion so you are stuck with the one you've got.
Apart from being the truth of course.
Oh good lord no. They are much too stupid and vicious to be reasoned with. Useful idiots I believe they are reffered to as. Luckily it's not up to me in that case to prove anything, it's up to the prosecution to prove that it does.
Lost me there. I was talking about the delusion known as "countries" you seem to want to go down some metaphysical road for some reason. On the other hand, I can sense all of those things, but I cannot sense a country. Mine has practical real world effect, yours is teenage meandering.
Exactly. It's only in your head, and the heads of those who also believe in it. The problem always lies when you pick up a gun to enforce your delusion onto me. It would be wrong for a religious nutcase to do that, why is it ok for a believer in "countries" to do it?
I've tried. Frankly they're being a little uncommunicative...
See? It is really not that complex to create a country and to make it exist.
No is not I'm afraid.
It was proved hundreds of years ago and has been a very real and existing reality since. Of course, no one can force you to believe otherwise...
You will find that there are countless millions of people, including myself, who can 'feel' a country. Sorry. Still as real as ever.
Like anything else I'm afraid. Property, life itself... how dare people tell me there is such thing as property, that I cannot take what I please and live in any house I please... all imposed by law, gun and force...
No, it wouldn't. Just no one would be able to argue about it without getting hurt. Not quite the same, though fundametalist groups have been trying the same method for most of history.
It's not difficult to get people to act like rabbits either, if you hold a gun to their heads. Doesn't mean a thing really.
Just your opinion til you show me some facts i am afraid.
Excellent. Can I have that proof please.
No, but you can force me to agree with it behaviourally. Which is what this is all about. Do you have the right to force your delusions or realities on another person against their will?
Interesting. Where do you feel it?
It's real because you feel it? Now I am intrigued. So, if you didn't feel it it wouldn't be real?
If there's no property and you cannot own anything, why would you take other people's stuff? In fact how could you? To be consisitent in that belief you wouldn't see the point.
It does to just about every person in the world but you. But of course, 6 billion people are wrong and you are right.
Seeing as you are the one making the extraordinary (and without meaning offence, breathtakingly absurd) claims that countries "don't exist", I believe you should be the one providing proof. Just as anyone who claimed that Elvis is not dead but living in sin with Nessie in the outer rings of Saturn would have to.
Sure. Go to Heathrow, approach an airline counter and ask for a ticket to, say, New York.
It'll all be revealed on arrival.
Sadly, in the case of countries, yes people have the right- at least regarding certain issues such as entering a country, setting up residence, crossing borders, etc. Unjust as it might seem.
Exactly in the same place where you could sense all those other things.
You tell me, you were the one claiming (in increasing desperation I fear) that, er... countries cannot exist because... er... you cannot sense them.
Because they claim it's theirs? Because I might want to use it if and when I desire?
hmm how about addressing the point instead?
You have spoken to 6 billion people? Nice one.
I am making the "claim" because once i ask for proof, no one has ever been able to provide any. Ever. you just failed to do so, making you thelatest in a long line.
No, this is exactly the other way around. Your "6 billion people" are making a claim and I am asking for proof. You are dodging the proof thing again.
That is only proof that the person at Heathrow who will probably stop me believes that there is a country. I already know that people believe in it, we already agreed that that doesn't make it so. An easy analogy is - go ask a member of the spanish inquisition for proof of god.
Nice pun. :thumb:
Circular argument. Countries exist, so people have the right to impose their will, which will make a country exist. Nice double bind.
? You feel what you see? I meant where in your body. in your chest? your fingers? halfway along the eyelid? Where do you feel that there is a country?
Misunderstanding. I cannot sense them, but you say you can. I am asking where you sense them.
You have answered a different question. If you don't believe in ownership and property, why would you want to claim ownership or take possesion of property? Makes no sense at all.
If property doesn't exist then neither does the law which governs it.
Does that make sense?
For the first 4, they don't exist either, they are arbitary drawing up of land. For the last one, the building exists, but nothing makes it mine more than anyone elses and so it's not a home in the strictest sense.
They are usually comforting, useful beliefs, but they really aren't factually accurate or true.
Quite correct.
Absolutely spot on, but you think that those things do exist, and of course they do not. At least, not beyond the level of belief, like in santa, the tooth fairy or the big beard in the sky.
You are however desperately gripping to some utopia concept that this does not make countries- despite just about everybody else on earth thinking otherwise.
Don't need to really do I?
This is getting really tiresome and pointless... :rolleyes:
Here's one. I could provide another 250-odd additional pieces of evidence... though it'd be a waste of bandwidth...
This is getting really tiresome and pointless... :rolleyes:
Here's another one. I could provide another 249-odd additional pieces of evidence... though it'd be a waste of bandwidth...
Yes it does.
But feel free to sticking to such 'reasoning' if it gives you comfort.
I'm glad you start to get it.
In my mind? In my heart? Where do you get your feelings? Or are you, like Lt. Commander Data, devoid of all emotions?
See above.
I would not claim ownership of anything. I would go and grab something that I want and have no concern about "rights" or "ownership" about it from its previous so-called "owner".
Waste of time.
BTW It's isn't Tikka Masala which comes from the UK, I think it's Balti.
Where and when was it mutually consented to?
Sounds good, what does it mean?
So america and england are the same place? Or if i speak french in "london" will I be no longer in "england"?
LOL. When was the last time you made a political agreement with france? it's done in your name right enough, but is it really anything to do with you?
What utopia? That most people are in the grip of a massive, dangerous cult, desperately insane and used by a handful of clever men and women? Funny "utopia".
Is NOT a proof. It's an opinion. Just because everyone shares it makes it no more true than it makes the world flat if everyone thinks so.
Wow. You think that some photons on a screen make a "country" and that brings it into existence? What if we removed "western australia" and replaced it with "cundelwazzoo"? What's the difference between me getting a piece of paper with shapes on and writing names on it and anyone else doing it?
Maps are countries now? I thought they were -
It depends what feeling. Fear is a different feeling to pleasure. It starts in a different place and travels in a quite different direction and speed, among other things.
Why would you do that? If you knew you would never have any connection to it, then why bother? you are trying to both not have ownership and have it too.
Still, nice touch.
Yawn.
Double yawn.
Unfortunately it would be a bit tricky for tens of millions of citizens to make individual agreements tens of millions of other citizens.
Whatever you say.
Not quite. Agreements are made when people share a common goal and beliefs. That you don't believe in such things doesn't make the agreement any less real.
I am afraid that you don't have any right whatsoever to tell the French that France doesn't exist. Well, let me rephrase that. You do have the right to say it- it would have have zero validity.
If the people of Western Australia wanted independence from thee rest of Australia and to change their name to Cundelwazzoo, they might get their wish and get their own country named just that.
You, I'm afraid, have little power to do so.
Yawn.
Thanks that fascinating piece of information. But let's not detour further from this particular point. Earlier you appeared to be implying that since countries couldn't be sensed they did not exist. I'm telling you I can sense my country. So therefore it exists.
Because I felt like it at the time?
In it, lots of things don't exist. Not even spoons.
Nah fave is the colour of money.
This begs the question -
Why have the idea of soup?
I'm glad you mentioned this.
I think I've said it before. I think its true, I remember reading it in The Age about six years ago. A Aussie ranch farmer resented paying tax, so he demanded his independence. The Aussies agreed whole-heartedly, and allowed him to be a separate country. And then put a border guard at his front gate, and refused him a visa:D
So we were not part of the agreement then? So how is it binding upon us?
yes I agree. So anyone who says that's what they are doing must be a liar. Stand up all politicians of all persuasions.
So if there is no common goal or agreement there is no country?
that there is no proof for this agreement, that i have never seen or igned it, never contracted it, or been informed of it's terms means it isn't real.
As there is no france the rest of that doesn't stand up. They can't be french if there is no france. There isn't, so I can't.
That's not what i asked. What I asked was what's the difference between me saying it and anyone else saying it?
Sure I have. I have the exact same power as any other person. pop - I have no renamed western australia. It's just as mistaken as anyone elses statement.
No problem. It's the most important thing you have ever read for your own personal freedom, but no worries you were being .....whatever.
That's right. You can sense it, in fact you said you could feel it. I cannot feel it. if only you have the feeling, then it only exists for you. if that's the basis on which you are saying it exists, of course. As you can feel it and I cannot and there is no physical world cause, it must be a delusion on your part. Or I am lacking a sense that you have, but I assure you I am unimpaired. (Insert remark here)
Now I want to know how you sense that "country". if you feel it, then that feeling must occur somewhere within your body (unless you keep your feelings in a shoebox somewhere or something). So, where do you feel a "country"?
Why would you feel like it though? Feelings are caused only by yourself unless you are being physically manhandled in some way, so why would you cause that feeling?
How does one "act british"? What exactly is "acting British"?
As for how is it binding, well sorry fella but life would have it that the people of certain country (or area if you must) have control over their own land, and as such have all the right in the world to, say, restrict entry for others such as you and me.
Just as you would restrict others from entering and moving into your house.
That's why we elect politicians to represent us- or most of us do anyway. Life ain't perfect.
. Not quite. It's rather more complex than that and depends on other factors, as I pointed out earlier.
No amount of deconstructing is going to change the fact that countries are very much real and very much exist I'm afraid.
You weren't around at the time.
Now you're just being silly :rolleyes:
For starters you are not the entire (or the majority of) the population of Western Australia, nor do you live there or have any say whatsover into their affairs.
You have all the right in the world to get your tippex out and rename any area you want, for course. The area or country in question will remain unchanged in real life of course, because... ^^ see previous answer.
No. As it has been pointed out to you many times already, countries exist for many reasons, not because they can be felt or sensed. I was just replying to your earlier suggestion.
What can be done? Some people have no feelings...
When you feel 'good', where do you feel it?
Well, that's exactly where I feel my country.
Next question?
I'm not sure. Get your ouija board and summon the spirit of Freud. He might be able to explain.