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Ok, when and where did you agree to it? Did you agree verbally, in writing, what did you do to agree?
Do you have control over your own land? Who controls it?
So if you don't elect them and refuse to vote - i.e. you don't create an agreement with them, do they stop representing you?
And I asked for proof, which you still haven't even attempted to give, other than a flat assurance that"they are real I am afraid". So, what's the proof for this assertion? Given that we already dismissed the idea that people acting as if something is there doesn't make it so. After all, football players limit themselves to a marked out area while playing, but the white lines aren't a real barrier, are they?
Abscence of proof for this. Proof please.
Do the majority of people in WA decide what things are named and how borders are drawn up?
Which is the same as anyone else naming and drawing up borders. you can doodle on maps all day long, but go into the real world and you will find a distinct absence of anything like what you have doodled.
Oh, I have feelings alright, just not this one. Do you feel it in your head? your chest? The tips of your fingers?
Starts slowly about my middle, moves about 6 inches inside my stomach amd then climbs quickly to my throat, loops back round and starts again. Was this what you had?
is it? Where do you feel your country? You have made the silly assumption that we feel things in the same way, which half an hour of questioning people will reveal that everyone feels good and bad in slightly different ways. As you have just slightly experienced, you can take and use other peoples if they are described wll enough. Enjoy!
Pick any of the ones you have avoided and have a go at it. Ta.
Sorry didn't work. I am not too good at auto suggestion, sorry.
I appreciate your defence of your belief, but there really isn't any proof you are providing so i must remain sceptical.
I do, and my fellow citizens.
Nope. They still represent you. Rather selfless, I'm sure you'll agree.
Well I told you repeated times to check and atlas; I explained what makes a country; I even wasted some of thesite's bandwidth (sorry Jim) posting maps of those maps.
Let me point out that this whole debate is rethorical. I know there is as much chance of you admitting that countries are real as there is convincing a flat earther that the earth isn't really flat. People believe what they want to believe, and are quite happy to deny the bleeding obvious just to support their completely unsustainable position.
Already have, many times over. Time for you to prove they don't. Especially since you're the one making the improbable and absurd claims that fly in the face of all the evidence in the world.
They could, if they organise themselves well enough. It all depends on how the situation develops. It can go one way or another, as countless such conflicts across the world from NI to the Basque Country to the Balcans have proven.
If people went into the trouble of building physical barriers (i.e. a Great Wall) would it make you happier?
How about islands? Isn't the ocean enough natural and physical border for you?
Probably in the same way as you feel your feelings- whichever they might prove to be.
Next question?
Slightly different- but then I guess it varies from person to person.
Er... whatever.
You'll have to live with the fact that I can feel my country. Therefore, according to your logic, at least one country exists. Sorry fella.
Which ones would those be?
Incidentally for all your demands of evidence you haven't proved yet that countries "don't exist". I eagerly await proof...
So you made an agreement in the womb, before you knew speech or writing, before you understood any of these concepts and before you were legally capable?
What makes you a citizen?
Yes very. :yeees: Invalidates your point about the agreement though. if it's a country because you have entered into an agreement with those who represent you, then it's the agreement that creates the country. As there is no agreement needed and they are doing it anyway, then there is no country.
And this has been dealt with many times over. Scribbling on paper doesn't change the real world one iota, no matter who does it. People can choose to believe or not (if they recognise it's just an optional belief of course) but that doesn't make it a fact, just a widely held opinion.
Countries are entirely rhetorical, I quite agree. I also know that there is as much chance of you recognising that you hold a false, unprovable belief as a flat-earther.
I know. Doesn't make it exist though, and doesn't make it a fact. It's a fact that people act as though it's real, it's not a fact that that it's real. It's a useful (or not) falsehood.
Where? How do you prove a negative again? Or have unicorns popped into existence now? Well, you can't prove that they aren't there can you?
What evidence?
Is that a yes or a no?
Large groups of individuals do not organise themselves though, tiny minorites organise everyone else. (As things stand) using belief, lies, threats, bribes, punishment etc etc.
I'm unhappy? No, it would still only prove that people thought there was a country, which I already agreed was the case. The fact that the land was there before the country and will be there long after we are all dead is where it becomes a bit tricky.
Different how?
Ok, drive north, when you reach "scotland" notice how nothing is different. Go to the edge of where your "town" is supposed to begin and end, is there anything there that would conclusively prove that there is such a thing?
Legally of course it's quite easy. A country is made up of citizens, who owe a duty of allegience in return for protection. As there is no agreement to protect you or anyone else, then there are no citizens. if there are no citizens, then there is no "country."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&q=define:citizen
Citizen: A native or naturalized member of a state or nation who owes allegiance to its government and is entitled to its protection
Being alive. Be living in a country. You are one too, whether you like it or not.
Whatever you say.
Unless of course we're talking about one of those precious 'contracts' of yours, presumably. For instance one that says you own the house you live in.
Presumably you don't after all, and anyone can move in as and when they please.
Whatever you say.
Presumably something only exists if you believe so, right? Not saying it's the case here, but if the entire population of the world believed something exists but you don't, the object in question does not exist, correct?
Do you, by any chance, believe you are God?
They exist for many reasons explained to you at length on many occasions. You on the other hand have consistently failed to provide any evidence to the contrary.
A minor difference of course is that no one has seen, formed, created or even felt a unicorn, ever. Whereas countries are very much real, do very much exist and are aplenty.
So, you will still have to prove they don't exist, just as anyone who claimed that, say, the Statue of Liberty doesn't really exist would have to prove it to the rest of us.
Yawn.
It's a maybe. Having reading comprehension trouble as well?
Oh dear dear dear...
Not really, no. :rolleyes: x 1,000,000
Just different.
*makes note to self to save the following paragraph, since it has to be used again and again and again*
Well, since you were earlier, when running out of ideas regarding what makes a country exist or not, insinuating that you could not feel or sense a country, it couldn't possibly exist, I was telling you that I can feel and sense a country, and therefore that country exists.
Unless of course, as I questioned above, you really are God and the ultimate decider of what exists or not.
Many things mentioned in the last 20 or 30 posts. And no, I can't be arsed to list them again. Try to read the thread.
Who told you there is no agreement?
So I am a citizen because I live in the "country" and the "country" exists because we are all citizens?
You mean the paper and ink that is thought to be linked to my house?
Unless they are physically stopped, they can.
What? A country isn't an object, it's an imposed distinction about an object.
Do you think I am saying that the ground isn't there?
? Ok, lets have evidence for a country on those lines - something I can see, something I can feel.
? The statue of liberty is a giant bronze statue. A country is an arbitary distinction imposed upon land that is unable to be sensed. How are athey akin?
What differences?
Then describe the feeling for me please. Also, how do you know that that feeling has an external cause and not an internal one?
?
If there was an agreement to protect me in exchange for my allegiance, then i would be able to -
1) Ask the police to come round my house 24/7 to look after my stuff.
2) if anything did get stolen, seek compensation from them to replace it because they failed in their end of the bargain.
As neither of those is the case, then there is no agreement.
If there is no agreement, then I am not a citizen, in fact no one is. If there are no citizens then there can be no state. If there is no state then there can be no nations, countries etc.
Yes.
Not legally, they cannot.
Do you think I am saying that the ground isn't there? [/quote] No I'm not. It was a hypothetical case incidentally. Since you seemed to be implying earlier that if you cannot feel, see or sense something it cannot exist...
You're the one having problems seeing and feeling things that the rest of mankind does, not the other way round.
Because countries are real and they exist, unlike unicorns. And since you are the one attempting to deny the obvious and claiming something real doesn't exist, you should be the one proving all of us wrong.
Impossible to explain. But they're there. Sorry that you cannot experience something similar.
Impossible to explain. But it's there. Sorry that you cannot experience something similar.
See earlier comments.
Ask for the Moon as well while you're at it...
I'm not even going to dignify point number one by commenting on it.
2) Tough luck. Get home insurance.
Oh so not only you're denying the existence of countries, you're now denying the existence of citizens- even to those who claim to be citizens.
You're getting funnier and funnier by the minute!
So it's a catch 22 then? Self proving runbbish like other fundamentalist beliefs?
Now we are getting somewhere. A country is defined by it's borders. these borders cannot be sensed. So, no countries.
?
Wheres your proof. It's pretty simple to do surely to god?
No, it isn't. Every feeling you have is a product of you shifting fluids around. So, feelings have a start and a direction, a temperature and so on. Describe to me this feeling accurately and I will recreate it for myself. So both of these comments are incorrect.
lol.
So let's get this straight. You are a citizen because you are entitled to protection from the "state" but they don't protect you? So you cannot be a citizen then, because they other end of the deal has be broken.
Not at all, only pointing out that the deal that would make you a citizen isn't being held to, so you aren't one. Pretty simple really. If you claim to be a tenant but get thrown on the street, you aren't one, if you get sacked you aren't an employee, and if someone welches on their end of the deal then there is no agreement.
Glad you think so. :yes: You amuse me also with your clinging to your belief.
"Other" fundamentalist beliefs? Me thinks your position is much more akin to fundamentalism than that of the rest of the world (that is to say, those of us who naturally know countries exist). At the end of the day you are the one making impossible and irrational claims in the face of logic and evidence.
LOL! A country is defined by many things, as it has been explained to you many times over. And in any case 'sensing' is not the ultimate deciding factor on whether something exists or not, regardless of where you got such idea. And in any case borders can easily be defined. Just arm yourself with a SPD and presto!
And what of those countries with borders that can be sensed (i.e. islands)? I very much believe even you would be able to sense the borders of, say, Barbados, as you feet touch the water.
See above.
The proof, as it has been pointed out about 2 million times now, is everywhere for you to see. On maps. On books. On the arrival terminal of a foreign airport.
Go to a library. Browse the net. Travel a bit.
Er.. no feelings are nothing like that. Perhaps you were experiencing indigestion.
Yes, they can protect you as best as they can. That doesn't guarantee unlimited protection against everything, all the time.
Is this the best you can do? Has the barrel got any bottom left to be scrapped at?
And that proves I'm not a citizen exactly how?
Not nearly as much as you are amusing the entire membership of these forums, I suspect...
No I am making a logical conclusion based on total lack of evidence. You haven't shown one single item of evidence to prove that you can have a country, You are like some 15th century preacher "everyone naturally knows god exists" blah blah blah.
So you can have a "country" without borders? Yes or no?
A list (short as it must be) of all those things that you know exist but cannot in anyway be sensed.
Spd? What? they can be easily defined, made up said to be there, invented, created, assumed yadda yadda. Doesn't call them into actual existence though does it? the fact that you can get people to play along by force or fraud proves fack all.
I would sense water, how would that be any different no matter what you called it?
Just like bibles and churches prove theres a god, eh? Get a grip.
May as well. Not a bad idea now that you mention it.
Yeah, they are. Or are you so insensitive to your own body?
And when they fail you should get compensation, as you would with a private firm.
Well, you've ignored most of my other points when they have got tricky for you, evaded when you got stuck and just parroted previous shit back at me. you still haven't provided any proof. I am kind of waiting for you to put up a link for the creation of a territory (like the uk in 22) so i can pull that in bits too, but you haven't yet.
Read it again, get someone to help you if you need.
As long as we are all having fun, that's the main thing.
Explain, expand?
Let's save ourselves some time:
me: no, you need borders
you: well there you are blah blah, I cannot see borders therefore borders do not exist therefore countries don't either
me: as it has been pointed out many times before, borders do exist whether you can 'sense' them or not.
See? That's at least two further posts we've advanced in a moment.
How about you provide some of the evidence asked of you about 200 times, before you ask anything else of others?
(Satellite Positioning Device). Er yes it does. You're still failing (deliberately or otherwise) to see it.
Congratulations! You've just sensed your first border.
Only that countries can be found everywhere (unlike God).
You are the one in desperate need of a grip. Since about yesterday morning.
Perhaps that's where you have gone wrong.
Er no they aren't. Perhaps you are an android and haven't realised. It doen't work as 'moving fluids' for me or any other human being I have ever encountered.
Life ain't perfect.
Anyway, is this your ultimate proof that countries don't exist? LOL!
Yawn.
Try to read the thread again.
Read a bit of history while you're at it. With age-old countries like the UK history can get boring, that's the only thing.
Yawn.
You got that right.
Name all the things you know exist that have never been in some way sensed.
Ok. There is no tangible physical, real world evidence that there are borders. So there is no evidence for countries, because without borders countries cannot be.
Should have been sorted pages ago, but you are struggling a little.
I am sorry, what does your position on the face of the earth have to do with countries? Call the areas what you want, you will still be in the same place.
For the last thousand years or so, yeah people have arbitarily divided land up into sections and pretended that it means anything. Until then no one had thought of the idea.
The current "uk" was said to be invented by the signing of documents in 1922. this wiped out the old "countries" and replaced them with a new one, just as fictional as the previous ones.
Please tell me how you sense changes in your feelings without changes in temperature, direction, location etc in your body. Looks like you are the android. You certainly seem well programmed.
No, that was in answer to your insane assertion that there were citizens.
I have already told you a million times that I can sense my country.
Therefore my country exists.
End of.
And don't even think of replying "but can you sense its borders because if not the country cannot exist because countries without borders cannot exist and blah blah blah". That's a paradox for YOU to solve, since you appear to claim that the only basis for something to exist is whether it can be sensed or not.
P.S. Not that a country exists because anyone can sense it, but since you seem to be dragging this debate to such astonishingly surreal and absurd levels...
Oh look... just as I imagined. I promise I hadn't seen this when I typed the above reply...
Mr Black... Mr Kettle...
Depending on where you go, you'll be in one country or another, naturally...
So what? Are you a Creationist? You don't believe mankind can create but only God?
The deeper you get into this, the more you come across as a fundamentalist. Which is bizarre because judging by your general comments about religion I didn't think you were.
Fictional to you. Real to the rest of mankind. But of course, you are right and everyone else is wrong.
I sense them in completely different ways as I sense other things.
Next question?
Did I hear the word insane?
I thought you of all people would have applauded the right of individuals to see themselves as anything they wanted. But no, apparently several billion people who see themselves as citizens are nothing of the sort.
Must be very frustrating to live on a planet where you are the only person who has the slightest clue of anything while everyone else lives in a permanent state of delusion. You must feel very lonely.
Though ultimately I know it'll get nowhere of course.
And refused to give me details....
And I cannot sense a country, therefore it doesn't.
It's not a paradox at all. I know of nothing that is that doesn't have a sensory basis. Do you?
No I don't think man can create, you can only convert. That's physics that is.
I do indeed have very firm beliefs. One of those is that it's wrong to enforce my beliefs on others. Which leads me to the problem I have with countries etc.
And that proves what exactly? Only that people have beliefs and I have different ones. Doesn't alter the facts of the matter in any way shape or form.
Details please. If it's visual it'll have a colour or a brightness, contrast etc. If it's a sound it will have volume, tonal qualities etc. Kino we have already covered. taste and smell have their own components.
Details as above please can i have?
Only if you read out loud or on the inside of your head. I only read visually as a rule so i don't do that.
I quite agree. You have the ability to choose any reality you want. Where I have the problem is when you tell me that it is the only reality, when I am expected to comply with it under threat, when you take my time and effort to match your version of reality. By all means think that the world is divided into countries. just respect my right to think differently and behave as I see fit. (Without hurting anyone of course)
Not really. My reality is a pretty fun place where you can do whatever you like if you can persuade others. there are only words stopping you, after all.
So am I. I think exactly the same but in reverse.
It's always worth it when it's fun though.
I didn't know all this discussion revolved around what you could feel. I thought it applied to any of us...
Countries?
So how do you create a work of art?
Wait, don't tell me... art doesn't exist either.
And I have sympathy with you, believe it or not, if you don't agree with a system that determines land will be devided into countries, each with its own restrictions, rules and laws. I'm sure it can be rotten if you don't agree with doing such things. But it doesn't mean they don't exist I'm afraid.
It certainly gives a very interesting insight...
There are other feelings, not covered by any of those senses, as they are others that might borrow from one or several of the above as well as from a particular state of mind. As I've said, far too complext to explain, and no amount of dissecting is going to point them down- or disprove they are real. Because I can assure you I feel them and they are very real.
Perhaps all this debate could have been avoided by better semantics on both our part. How does ''I don't recognise the authority or legality of countries to restrict or govern me, even though I acknowledge their existence'' sound to you?
For instance, I don't recognise the authority or legality of laws restricting me from taking drugs. However it'd be nonsense to say such laws don't exist, because they do.
I'd imagine that could prove quite a challenge, and a bit of a losing battle in many areas. Either that or you can play Jedi mind tricks
Before I get to anything else, natrulich.
Going to bed now.
I will let you demolish yourself using your own words in the morning, if you are game.
*stretch*
Right let's get down to it.
Ok where and when was this consensus come to? Does it really include everyone? Proof would be good.
Name of parties, time and place of agreement please. Content of agreement would also be good.
Defined by who, when and where?
Who's culture, relative to which other people?
Feeling where and when specifically? Heritage from whom?
Are you saying that everyone came up with this "abstraction" entirely seperately from each other, with no communication between them whatsoever? If not, then it can be explained. Get to it then.
BTW, -
As for whether everyone is included, well yes of course they are. You can even get a shiny passport to show for it.
The people of
Afghanistan
Albania
Armenia
American Samoa
Andorra
Anguilla
Antigua and Barbuda
Argentina
[continues all the way to Z]
Time and place varies from country to country, naturally. Roughly covering the last two millennia.
By the people of each country, over centuries if not millennia.
The culture of each set of peoples, who form each country
As I've said a million times now, feeling can be from one or several places, manifested through not only the five senses we know but through other means such as state of mind.
I'm getting rather tired of this now :rolleyes:
As for heritage, well it comes from the people of the said country, over several centuries if not millennia. Funnily enough, just as the culture, history and identity do. :rolleyes:
No it can't be explained. And yes it exists.
Now, let's engage in a little quid pro quo shall we.
Can we finally have:
- your proof that countries don't exist
- your proof that citizens dont exist :rolleyes:
- your answer as to whether you believe abstract art exists
In your own time...
BTW, where is that "demolition" of myself you had promised the other day?
It can be explained, people like to mark off their own bit of land/stuff and say this is mine.
Groups of people do the same thing. Its human nature.
I didn't ask for this, I asked when and where was the consensus come to. In the absence of a date and place and people to come to a consensus, there cannot have been one. That's logic that is.
Again, you have answered a different question. I asked for proof that everyone was in on the consensus (whenever and wherever it was come to), I await your answer.
Ok we will start off with afghanistan. When are where was "afghanistan" created. Who were the people involved in it's creation and when was the agreement and consensus arrived at between them?
So pick one and get on with it. Anyone you like.
By which people specifically, when and where specifically? Names, dates and places please.
Btw, you cannot say that the people of afghanistan came up with the idea of afghanistan in afghanistan because before they agreed to it (if they ever did) it wasn't in existence, even according to your own logic.
States of mind are created by internal representations of the five senses, allied to the structure between them. So, there are still no things that exist that cannot be sensed either internally or externally. So, is this "country" an internal or external phenomenon?
But if a country was "created" at a specific point in space and time, it's a brand new thing at that point, and so has nothing to do with them, other than being a product perhaps. You cannot have an identity with something not yet invented, you cannot be in a place not yet defined. It's history must begin at the point it's invented, just as a persons history begins when they are born.
Once you answer the question I actually put to you, and not ones you made up yourself, sure. :rolleyes:
When you are born you automatically become a citizen of the country you are born in. I'm not prepared to provide "evidence" of this any more that I'd be prepared to provide "evidence" that the Sun is bright and yellow. So stop wasting my time with such pointless questions when you already know the answer (and the facts).
Google is your friend.
Google is your friend.
:rolleyes:
Yawn x 94,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
They created it. But then, you appear to believe that mankind cannot create anything, only "transform", so why are we wasting all this bandwidth?
No they're not.
Yes they do- I've told you a million times, I can feel my country and it exists. And nothing you're going to say will change that I'm afraid.
Doh!
No, you create something to encompass the common identity, culture, roots, heritage etc of a people. As, funnily enough, it has happened all over the world with the final result of the countries we know today.
I've answered a million times. You're just not liking what you're hearing. Can't help with that.
Anyways, quid pro quo please. You can add 'what do you think of the concept of "I don't recognised the validity or legality of countries but I admit they exist nonetheless" (just as I do regarding drug laws)' to the list from my previous email.