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What unpopular opinions do you have?

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    OK, I thought : was standard for simple calculations.
    But in any case: Writing the way ShyBoy did would beat the point, which is that people somehow think that calculations adjacent to set of parentheses take precedence to the rest of the calculations outside the parentheses and don't accept they're wrong.
    The thing is, all the smug people who get the "right" answer are actually wrong, because there just isn't a clearly defined standard order of precedence - the clearest example of this is the microsoft calulator which will give you different answers to the same sum depending on whether it is set to "standard" or "scientific" mode.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, we could stop funding on the NHS and claw back the hundreds of thousands spend on it every year.

    I think that the last estimate was approx £4m per year from a budget of over £100bn. Just for context, more than £1.7bn is being spent on the implementation of the NHS Health and Social Care Act 2006
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    However, my 2p... homeopathy has no place in the NHS. Just as routine tonsillectomies don't. No clinical evidence base for benefits.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The biggest waste with the NHS I believe is the PFI contracts which failing hospitals can no longer afford, so the burden shifts onto the PCT who then have to pull resources from successful hospitals. E.g. if you have signed a 10 year contract for cleaners at £10,000 / day or something, but your hospital funding gets slashed because you didn't meet your care targets, then you go into the red because you still need to legally pay that contract and the other hospital thats doing really well all of a sudden finds a ward closed to pay your bad contracts.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think that the NHS should spend more money on diagnositics, less money on cancer care and more money on mental health. Too much money is being thrown at high profile conditions and less money is being given to more prevelant illness.
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    SkiveSkive Posts: 15,286 Skive's The Limit
    The NHS should be spending money on stuff that works. No faith healers, no black magic, no witchcraft, fairies and no homeopathy.

    The reason they don't have side effects is that they have no effect.

    I find it incredible that otherwise intelligent people believe in this stuff.
    Weekender Offender 
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What about hypnosis?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The NHS provides many treatments that dont work and many that do. This is not confined to homeopathy.

    I don't single out homoeopathy. Anything that's not been proven to work shouldn't be funded.
    If youre so arrogant to say that you know how the body works, and im pretty sure you know fuck all about both conventional medicine AND alternative medicine.

    The wonderful thing about the scientific method and peer review is that I don't have to know how the body works. I can assess the studies that are performed by people who do.
    How about let people find what works FOR THEM

    The problem with this is it fosters a mentality where there's a disregard for evidence and critical thinking. This is relatively innocuous when treating the vague unease of the middle classes, but it bleeds out and you'll find yourself advocating treating cancer with broccoli because someone thinks it'll work FOR THEM.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think that the last estimate was approx £4m per year from a budget of over £100bn. Just for context, more than £1.7bn is being spent on the implementation of the NHS Health and Social Care Act 2006

    I've nicknamed this type of argument the Kansas Shitty Shuffle: there's a turd on your carpet and someone is trying to apply misdirection by pointing to a bigger turd on another carpet. You still have a turd inbetween you and the telly.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    yes but if someone is saying theyve found a really good way that takes the turd off their carpet and a load of other people are saying NOOOO its not working for the right REASONS. Youre mad. That shouldnt work. The turd must have just disappeared by some other means.

    So i say fuck off, this worked for me. the turd went quickly and easily this way, and with less stains left on the carpet than with your method.
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    SkiveSkive Posts: 15,286 Skive's The Limit
    ;So i say fuck off, this worked for me.

    You don't see any harm then?

    Didn't work very well for these people.
    http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html

    The danger with homeopathic remedies is that people believe they work. The more people that believe it the more people will ignore medicine that actually works.
    Weekender Offender 
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote: »
    You don't see any harm then?

    Didn't work very well for these people.
    http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html

    The danger with homeopathic remedies is that people believe they work. The more people that believe it the more people will ignore medicine that actually works.

    yes and yes.

    it's in the same box as the christian woman I knew who advised a fellow student in the CU to come off her anti-depressants and rely on prayer and God...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote: »
    You don't see any harm then?

    Didn't work very well for these people.
    http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html

    The danger with homeopathic remedies is that people believe they work. The more people that believe it the more people will ignore medicine that actually works.

    Some of those are very extreme, and a lot of them arent even about homeopathy.

    You could just as easily find patients who died of cancer or AIDS whilst using conventional medicine.

    I do know a woman who is very against conventional medicine and i was completely freaked out when she refused to vaccinate her children against whooping cough and then they all caught it including her very small baby who was very ill. I pretty much begged her to use conventional medicine. She used homeopathy instead. Its not a risk I or many others would take, and its not something MY homeopath would ever have encouraged. The children including the baby are now fine. I still think shes a dangerous nutcase about it.
    The fault here is not homeopathy. Its nutters. Its like blaming the christian church for the existence of westboro baptist.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i very strongly believe in peoples rights to choose their own treatments and to refuse conventional treatments if that is what they want. A lot of side effects of conventional medicines can be worse than the illness itself. I fully support the right of cancer patients etc to refuse radiotherapy and if they want to try other things, good for them.

    What I dont like, is people taking big risks with childrens health though, and this is where the law usually does come in, as in the case of the little boy recently in the news. Was it Neon something??
    Its not the fault of alternative medicine itself, and what you are arguing against here is pretty much individual autonomy and informed consent.
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    SkiveSkive Posts: 15,286 Skive's The Limit
    You could just as easily find patients who died of cancer or AIDS whilst using conventional medicine.

    Medicines that have been clinically proven to work. It's no comparable, unless you throw reason and common sense out the window.
    You know the reason why homeopathic remedies have no side effects? Because it's water - it has no effect.
    I do know a woman who is very against conventional medicine and i was completely freaked out when she refused to vaccinate her children against whooping cough and then they all caught it including her very small baby who was very ill. I pretty much begged her to use conventional medicine. She used homeopathy instead. Its not a risk I or many others would take, and its not something MY homeopath would ever have encouraged. The children including the baby are now fine. I still think shes a dangerous nutcase about it.

    This is unfortunately the sort of problem you are going to get as long as people maintain homeopathic remedies work.
    The fault here is not homeopathy. Its nutters.

    The fault lies in the people that peddle this stuff and those that believe it works. If you want to call them nutters go ahead.
    i very strongly believe in peoples rights to choose their own treatments and to refuse conventional treatments if that is what they want.

    So do I as long as they are well informed. If people believe that homeopathic remedies work I suggest they are not well informed, in fact they are misinformed.

    Homeopathic remedies for curing cancer, hepatitis, malaria, typhoid, diabetes. Jesus wept.

    http://www.blueturtlegroup.com/
    http://www.cancertutor.com/
    Weekender Offender 
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think there's two arguments that are being conflated.

    1. Does homeopathy work

    2.
    A) should people have the choice to use it regardless of efficacy

    B) should the NHS provide for those choices
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ballerina wrote: »
    What about hypnosis?

    Scientific consensus supports the efficacy of hypnosis especially in conjunction with other treatments.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've nicknamed this type of argument the Kansas Shitty Shuffle: there's a turd on your carpet and someone is trying to apply misdirection by pointing to a bigger turd on another carpet. You still have a turd inbetween you and the telly.

    Just giving context. Pissing away £4m is less of an issue than £1bn on reorganisation, and that isn't party political cos they are all as bad as each other. We also spend more than this on "real" medication that people don't bother to take, only to then get worse and need even more expensive treatment. We spend much more than this on so many otehr areas which actually don't achieve any real benefits...

    Just context.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i very strongly believe in peoples rights to choose their own treatments and to refuse conventional treatments if that is what they want. A lot of side effects of conventional medicines can be worse than the illness itself. I fully support the right of cancer patients etc to refuse radiotherapy and if they want to try other things, good for them.

    I completely support people's right to choose, I just don't think that the NHS should fun it. We should be funding evidence based care and that simply doesn't exist for homeopathy.
    What I dont like, is people taking big risks with childrens health though, and this is where the law usually does come in, as in the case of the little boy recently in the news. Was it Neon something??

    Not sure of actual case mentioned but the state (in this case usually NHS) does step in regularly, whether it's religious grounds or not too. There's a small part of me that thinks we should when it comes to herd immunity issues like MMR, without that immunity we end up with measle epidemics and that's a killer.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i think NHS is stopping most homeopathic stuff anyway, and tbh, id prefer that they did, if only so that people could shut up about it being on the NHS, when i dont think it was ever a common thing anyway. The amount of money the government wastes constantly, i really am not sure how much of that was down to homeopathy, but id suspect very very little indeed
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    On the vaccination note - I have been (as far as both me and my mother are aware as my little red book was stolen some years ago) fully vaccinated - and I got whopping cough as a child and was ill for nearly 3 months. Personally I think anyone who 100% trusts conventional or complementary medicine is bonkers. I will go to see my GP for most things that aren't minor, but when he runs out of ideas (as he has with the fibromyalgia) I have no option but to either research myself (I.e. spending countless hours trawling through medical studies and data) or trying things that are on offer to me. The homeopath I see will always always tell me to go see a doctor if she thinks I need to. I think conventional doctors need to stop having blind belief in what they do as well as these rogue "quacks" as some are calling them. I'd be interested to know how many of you have actually tried complementary therapies before you write them off.
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    SkiveSkive Posts: 15,286 Skive's The Limit
    Ill try homeopathic remedies when it can be shown to me to work, but they havn't, not even a little bit.
    Fucking magic water.
    Weekender Offender 
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Miss_Riot wrote: »
    I'd be interested to know how many of you have actually tried complementary therapies before you write them off.

    Why would I try something that has been clinically shown to have no effect?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Because you don't know if you don't try? And 'clinically proven' doesn't automatically make it better.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ballerina wrote: »
    And 'clinically proven' doesn't automatically make it better.

    Actually, yes it does. Because of the "proven" part.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the whooping cough vaccine was hugely contraversial when i was a child and my mum refused it for me. I believe its better now.

    Vaccine damage does happen.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Absolutely, you only need to look at thalidomide to see there are limits with any medicine. Though that was an unprecedented problem and couldn't happen again, there's no guarantee that there won't be other unprecedented problems in the future.

    But i don't agree you need to try homeopathy to be confident it doesn't work. I don't need to sail around the world to prove to myself it isn't flat. Smarter and more able men and women do this for us, then publish their results, and then smarter men and women still endorse or criticise those results to reach a consensus.

    Though the consensus can be wrong as science is always publishing new and better results, but that's different from saying a scientific consensus and a gut feeling have equivalence, or that distrusting modern medicine is no different from people who distrust homeopathy.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru

    A homeopath trotting out pseudoscience and claiming that research backs her up when every report she quoted stated that the methodology of the clinical trials was so low that any positive proof was questionable and that the higher quality trials found little effect?

    Yup.
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