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How do we view feminism?

13

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    geneve wrote: »
    Clementine, look at the post you linked... I think Kaff's in the wrong.

    Can you explain why?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    I think the first 'wave' was solely concerned with women's rights.

    Surely at this point it becomes a humanist approach then, rather than one of feminism.

    For me, feminism is primary concern with the equality issue when females do not carry the same rights as men. in that I would include things like the vote or equal pay for equal work.

    When it comes to those aspects you mention then rights for all are in play. Why should courts still see mothers as the prime place for childrearing, why should abortion be seen soley as a right for the mother, why shouldn't anyone have the right to decent working conditions or to buy a home?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Big Gay wrote: »
    When we celebrate the mother, we celebrate the mother as a whole, which includes her biology.

    Unless we have mastered immaculate conception (and I cannot think of a single case in human history where we have) then surely we should also celebrate the father and his biology?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    why should abortion be seen soley as a right for the mother?

    because the only person involved is the potential mother.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    Unless we have mastered immaculate conception (and I cannot think of a single case in human history where we have) then surely we should also celebrate the father and his biology?

    Celebrating one thing does not preclude from also celebrating another.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I thought moving it to P&D would attract SG and Aladdin so at least this thread would have been interesting.

    How wrong I was...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I thought moving it to P&D would attract SG and Aladdin so at least this thread would have been interesting.

    How wrong I was...

    bitch
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    because the only person involved is the potential mother.

    Thank you for proving a point, even though I agree to a certain extent. It isn't, after all, the father whose body will be directly affected.

    However, his emotions clearly are not worth considering, but he is, I suppose, just the father.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Has any body read anything by Judith Butler? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Butler
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    Celebrating one thing does not preclude from also celebrating another.

    The point being made was that we should celebrate womanhood for being able to give birth, to bring a child into the world. A very feminist approach, one could say.

    I would argue that actually it's take both genders to bring a child into the world. Guess which gender is usually forgotten.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    Thank you for proving a point, even though I agree to a certain extent. It isn't, after all, the father whose body will be directly affected.

    However, his emotions clearly are not worth considering, but he is, I suppose, just the father.

    No, we don't consider the emotions of one person as more important than the rights over ones own body, do you think we should? Do you think abortion is a special case where we should or, there are other examples?

    Feel free to change my mind...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    geneve wrote: »
    I don't think anyone should be applying for a new job then go on leave for months. It doesn't make any sense, particularly to the employer and partcularly to a new mother, how does either party know how they will feel and cope when they return to work.

    Except that in this case it's not a new job. It's actually just the job I already do, which they are trying to deny me the right to get recognition for because I am going on leave. Which in turn means that when I come back, I actually won't be doing the same job in the same conditions, even though I am legally entitled to.

    That's not even a matter of gender, in my eyes, it's a matter of law, and happily for me they're on the wrong side of it in this case. I didn't make this about whether I'm male or female, they did. I'm just not going to roll over and accept it.

    I suppose you think that makes me a terrible bra-burning man-hater. Oh well :)

    On the thread topic, and in case it isn't obvious from this, I would say I am a dictionary-definition feminist. I am all about equality, although by being equal, I don't mean identical. IMO, comparing men and women is like comparing apples and oranges. They don't have all the same bits, or all the same functions, but they are both equally valuable fruit :thumb:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    I would argue that actually it's take both genders to bring a child into the world. Guess which gender is usually forgotten.

    Well, what do you want? Celebration of fathers? I'm all for it, the best way to start might be... with a bit of consciousness raising, in the form of a 'rant' if you like ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    No, we don't consider the emotions of one person as more important than the rights over ones own body, do you think we should? Do you think abortion is a special case where we should or, there are other examples?

    Feel free to change my mind...

    I missed the part where is suggested, or insinuated, that emotions were more important than the rights of a woman's body.

    Abortion was, however, the only thing that you picked out of my response questioning whether the issues you raised were feminist issues of one where rights should be available for all.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    Well, what do you want? Celebration of fathers? I'm all for it, the best way to start might be... with a bit of consciousness raising, in the form of a 'rant' if you like ;)

    Ah, so this is a thread for feminist issues only? Kinda sexist approach, non :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    I missed the part where is suggested, or insinuated, that emotions were more important than the rights of a woman's body.

    Abortion was, however, the only thing that you picked out of my response questioning whether the issues you raised were feminist issues of one where rights should be available for all.
    Well, just sticking with the abortion theme, what was your point about men's emotions then, perhaps I have you twisted?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    Ah, so this is a thread for feminist issues only? Kinda sexist approach, non :p

    Er, no :no:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    There are other concepts around feminism that I find interesting too, like where race and class intersect with gender to bring up different issues

    From a capitalist perspective gender, race and class are all intertwined. The basic argument is that capitalists have systematically created racism and sexism in the workplace so that races and genders see more in common with themselves than their fellow working (wo)man :wave: and therefore limitating their bargaining rights in the workplace. I think this applies more to race than gender but it equally is true for both imo.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    Well, just sticking with the abortion theme, what was your point about men's emotions then, perhaps I have you twisted?

    My point is tha abortion isn't, and should never be seen as, solely a "women's issue". It's a parent's issue.

    I'm never going to argue that the father should have a right of veto but, unlike many, neither will I argue that it is something which only affects the mother. It doesn't.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    Thank you for proving a point, even though I agree to a certain extent. It isn't, after all, the father whose body will be directly affected.

    However, his emotions clearly are not worth considering, but he is, I suppose, just the father.

    but it would be too problematic to give the father rights over an abortion because by doing so you'd be invading the mother's human rights.

    i think a similar type of after care should be available to fathers e.g. counselling and support but the abortion itself i think, should always remain the mother's decision.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't disagree with the last sentiment. That doesn't make it a "women's" issue, which is how it is usually portrayed.

    I even remember suggestions that Parliament shouldn't be making laws in this instance because it's so male dominated
    We believe that the lack of women in Parliament, and politics, means that not only are women's interests not represented in Parliament but that legislation that is debated and passed on women's issues such as abortion can be lacking in legitimacy

    From here, as an example.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I was thinking about that whole "fathers rights" thing with abortion. Obviously it would be horrendous to force a woman to carry a baby for 9 months that she didn't want, but the other way around is a bit different. Not forcing her to have an abortion, of course, but being able to officially state your position as not wanting the baby, and therefore not being responsible for it. This would be the male equivalent of the woman's right to choose the fate of the baby in relation to her. And I have to say, if you look at just this in isolation, I think it would be a fair application of the concept of equality to allow a man to do that. However, in reality, these things don't exist in isolation, and the result of allowing that would be an inequality at the conception stage, essentially putting all of the responsibility on the woman, and literally none on the man. And not only do I not think that is a good example of equality between the sexes, it's also not likely to be something that would be particularly good for society as a whole.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There is no father until there is a baby, this is why men have no rights over abortion. Until the baby is born there is a man with rights over his body, and a woman with rights over her body.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Big Gay wrote: »
    When we celebrate the mother, we celebrate the mother as a whole, which includes her biology.

    This celebration doesn't detract from the appreciation of the extremely dedicated support of midwives - nor that of and nurses and consultants

    Indeed, this is what I would have responded.

    First, MoK, I don't think recognising the awesomeness of my care team - and they were all amazing, midwives, doctors, care assistants - means there is less room to recognise the awesomeness of my achievement too. It's not a zero-sum game. We all did a great job.

    And as Big Gay rightly points out, when I say I think I did amazingly, part of what I mean by that is, isn't my body amazing? Isn't the human body incredible? I'm not necessarily claiming I had any major will or volition over the whole thing, and perhaps biology does 'take over' - but still, that in itself is incredible, and I don't see 'me' as somehow separate from my body. I am my body, and my body did an incredible job.

    (That said, I still had to work hard mentally too. 27 hours in labour is quite a tough psychological, as well as physical feat!)

    But MoK, your comment
    Unless we have mastered immaculate conception (and I cannot think of a single case in human history where we have) then surely we should also celebrate the father and his biology?

    is, quite frankly, ridiculous. I carried the babies for nine months. During that time I suffered morning sickness, all manner of aches, pains and other general fatigue, and then serious discomfort towards the end when the baby was overdue. Then I went through a marathon of a labour. Then I breastfed for six months.

    The part my partner's biology played in all that was ejaculating inside me at the start of all that. While I agree that it kicked off a rather wonderful and magical process, I don't think it was too much of a challenge for him! I don't think there is any great symbolic injustice being done if we marvel at the immense feat being carried out by women's bodies every day, while not extending the same reverence to men's role in it all! It may indeed take two genders to bring a baby into the world, but one of those fulfils his role rather quickly and pleasurably at the start of the process.

    That's not to say that men have no interests to be considered with respect to the unborn child of course, because these two issues, while related, are separate. The question of how much wonder and awe we should feel towards women's bodies is a separate one from the question of rights over them.

    While you might be right that abortion is not only a women's issue, it's obviously primarily a women's issue. It involves a woman's right to decide what happens to her own body - how is that not a woman's issue? Of course it affects fathers too - but given that the right of the woman in question is her right to bodily integrity, then it's hard to see how any interest of the father's could ever trump that. So while he might have an interest worth considering, and a right to express that, it's hard to see how it could ever be decisive, and in that case, while he does have an interest, he has no rights.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whenever anyone mentions the word "feminist" to me, the first thing that comes to mind - or more specifically, the first person that comes to mind is Harriet Harman. I know, I know, deeply depressing. Yes, the very same Harriet Harman who was recently told to stop telling lies about this country's rape statistics. The very same Harriet Harman who supports positive discrimination and giving women jobs ahead of men - except when it comes to her own husband, funnily enough.

    Not a good start, is it? More generally, I view feminism in the same way as most other things - with at least one cynical eye. Because women seem very selective about what bits of feminism they actually want to see. In other words, they only want equality when it's convenient for them. I, as a man, have no objection to women being equal with men, but it does annoy me when I see this. For example, women currently get to retire 5 years earlier than men. That isn't equality, in my eyes. If anything, it should be men that get to retire first on the grounds that women live for longer. But you never hear anyone point that out, do you?

    Sigmund Freud, when he famously queried "What do women want?" was really onto something...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    potw but i cant pick just one bit NOT sg, jamelia. no offence sg
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm guessing the retirement age will be evened out soon enough. And even then, it's hardly an example of women getting their own way. It was an example of the slightly patronising attitude that suggests that women will need to retire earlier because they can't handle the world of work for as long as men.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Or perhaps because housework is more demanding than real work?

    No, you didn't just read that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Because women seem very selective about what bits of feminism they actually want to see. In other words, they only want equality when it's convenient for them. I, as a man, have no objection to women being equal with men, but it does annoy me when I see this. For example, women currently get to retire 5 years earlier than men. That isn't equality, in my eyes. If anything, it should be men that get to retire first on the grounds that women live for longer. But you never hear anyone point that out, do you?

    Sigmund Freud, when he famously queried "What do women want?" was really onto something...

    I can't be arsed to engage with your tedious and off-topic bashing of a member of the government just for the hell of it, because it's all so predictable.

    I am all in favour of equalising the retirement age, and would indeed point this out in a discussion of gender equality. Apart from anything, I have no desire to retire at such a ridiculously early age as 65, let alone 60. Bearing in mind I'm in very good health and will probably live another 30 years after that, I would like to keep working as long as I possibly can. Anyway, the law is being changed to bring men and women's retirement ages into line, most feminists would have no problem with that at all, and as I'm With Stupid says, the discrepancy at the moment is probably down to old fashioned ideas about women's frailty and weakness.

    So what else have you got?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The original quote:
    potw but i cant pick just one bit.
    Aw, thank you very much!
    potw but i cant pick just one bit. NOT sg, jamelia. no offence sg
    Well, fuck you then. :p
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