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How do we view feminism?

24

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I pretty much agree. Self-labelling isn't consequence free, and as such I'd feel far more at east arguing for equality than having to disassociate myself with various areas of disagreement and preconceptions about feminism.

    However also worth considering the two sides of labelling. On one side it can be divisive and it's incredibly difficult to define a single term that covers many different views. On the other hand it's often an inherently empowering exercise to bring together those different views under one banner - especially where you've more consensus than disagreement.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    However also worth considering the two sides of labelling. On one side it can be divisive and it's incredibly difficult to define a single term that covers many different views. On the other hand it's often an inherently empowering exercise to bring together those different views under one banner - especially where you've more consensus than disagreement.

    As I rule I try to avoid labels, either my own or accepting them from others. In my experience they get in the way of discussing the meat of a matter - you end up only accepting the label on the proviso of endless caveats. Feminism, probably more than a lot of topics, conjures up a lot of preconceptions and comes lumbering into the room laden down with baggage. As I believe in the idea of social and political equality between the sexes, it's often a lot easier to say that. If there are specific issues beyond that I'd rather discuss them on a case-by-case basis.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    gen, what do you mean by 'roles'? i can understand biological ones e.g. women having to give birth. im just asking because i have a feeling this might be where the views really differ.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    geneve wrote: »

    Feminism to me conjures up images of woman getting pissy because someone held the door open for them.
    That's hilarious. Have you ever witnessed that actually happen?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And when you witnessed said person getting pissy because the door was being held open for them, did you enquire as to whether they were a feminist?

    Have to say, I have never witnessed such a thing. I know lots of feminists, and we all love having doors held open for us! I don't see the connection, and I would be surprised if anyone else did.

    Are you a mother, incidentally geneve?

    It is interesting to note that having been said wobbly, leaky woman during and after pregnancy, I didn't get the impression that most people think this is perfectly normal. Like Thunderstruck, they think it is disgusting. They are appalled when you talk about it, and disapprove when you want to feed your baby in public.

    Tampon adverts in the US have recently been banned from using the word vagina. The whole point isn't that everyone else thinks women's bodies are normal and natural, and feminists insist in 'unnecessarily hyping it up' as you say. Rather, people seem to think it's something to be disgusted or ashamed of, so we are afraid of even mentioning the word vagina. It is feminists who are pointing out the normality and naturalness of it all, while people like you run away screaming in disgust.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm really amused at you saying you want to be a lady. I guess the whole point is that there is nothing lady like at all about pregnancy, labour, breastfeeding etc. There's a lot of blood, shit, leaking, sweating. It's generally pretty earthy and real, and about as far removed from being a lady as is possible. And I don't see why women shouldn't talk about it, given how normal and natural it is. So fuck being ladylike!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not to mention that stats from 2004 put the number of women who die during or just after childbirth to be around 15% worldwide
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That they do it without feeling the need to be celebrated is all the more reason to celebrate them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    geneve wrote: »
    That's not something I forsee being of personal concern to me, for a number of reasons. But I don' think it's something to be impressed by, many many women give birth without the need to celebrated for it.

    :lol:

    Said as only someone who has never gone through it can.

    Every woman who gives birth should be celebrated for it. It's a major feat, physically on a par with running a marathon, and at the end of it you have brought new life into the world which everyone benefits from - my children are the next generation of workers and taxpayers, apart from anything else.

    And I tell you what, I bloody well do deserve to be celebrated. 27 hours of labour and a third degree tear with my first - I deserve a fucking trophy and a parade!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I never said I was. Every single one of us deserves a trophy and a parade.

    And as Jim said, that's not to mention the many women worldwide who don't survive it.

    You're a real charmer, aren't you?!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    geneve wrote: »
    Funny you should compare it to a marathon, how many did Eddy Izard run one after the other recently?

    What on earth is your point? That running marathons is a piece of piss?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I dont think anyone, even highly trained athletes find a marathon easy, how naive of you
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    well physiologically its a highly stressful situation for your body so i'd hardly say its easy

    ETA im not saying it should be death defying but i would highly contest the idea they are easy
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You do have a way of trying to shrug them off like they are nothing though

    Also you kinda did, peice of piss = easy
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    geneve wrote: »
    Well you're not exactly the first woman to give birth or have a tricky one....

    Funny you should compare it to a marathon, how many did Eddy Izard run one after the other recently?

    He didn't run any marathons.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    geneve wrote: »
    My last 2 weren't exactly death defying pieces of athletism. Of course it's not easy, but both labour and marathons are common activities completed by millions, so excuse me for not having a 2 minute silence everytime a woman gives birth. I'd never get anything done!

    PS Many of my friends do ultra marathons and we're all keen adventure racers so perhaps that was an unlucky link...

    I can't work out whether you are deliberately obnoxious and obtuse, or a bit dim. Either way, I'm the idiot for trying to have an intelligent and reasoned debate with you.

    I have never run a marathon but I admire your achievement and think it is a real physical feat, you must be very proud of yourself, and rightly so.

    I have never said anyone should have two minutes silence for me because I underwent two long, difficult and painful labours. But how you can dare to denigrate or belittle it, when you have never been through it yourself, is beyond me. You are both ignorant and arrogant in the extreme. Women all over the world die in childbirth. Going through pregnancy takes its toll on your body in a long lasting, permanent way.

    And now I retire from this pointless discussion with you.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I never used the word peice of piss once (apart from to say you said it)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You don't need to feel sorry for me - my labours weren't great, but I rarely think about it now and I have to beautiful children who make me ecstatically happy every day.

    But I do object to your remarkably dismissive and belittling attitude towards things you don't understand. Why be so sneering and dismissive? I am genuinely in awe of you and your marathon running, and am massively impressed by it. It might be easy for all I know! But it doesn't look it, and I'm amazed at your achievement. The fact that Eddie Izzard ran 48 in a row or whatever it was doesn't make me think running one must be easy.

    I find your opposite reaction to women having babies very odd and quite arrogant, that's all. A little humility wouldn't go amiss!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just to remind people to avoid comments that are directly insulting to individual users. That's especially important to remember in heated topics - and as with the comment in question they will be removed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If someone is a moron there's no point in not saying it
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Big Gay wrote: »
    If someone is a moron there's no point in not saying it

    You can think that but whilst your here we'd ask you to respect the rules we've got in place. We believe they encourage rather than restrict debate and whilst there can be some leeway we do require them to be followed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    geneve wrote: »
    No I kinda didn't. .

    Yes, you kinda did - you agreed to that interpretation of your statement.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I love this little fantasy world of yours.

    I know ultra-marathon runners, but they don't describe marathons as easy - merely easier.

    But don't worry about being consistent.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    you probably have.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    jamelia wrote: »
    Every woman who gives birth should be celebrated for it. It's a major feat, physically on a par with running a marathon, and at the end of it you have brought new life into the world which everyone benefits from - my children are the next generation of workers and taxpayers, apart from anything else.

    And I tell you what, I bloody well do deserve to be celebrated. 27 hours of labour and a third degree tear with my first - I deserve a fucking trophy and a parade!

    I'm not sure I completely agree.

    Shouldn't it be the midwife who is celebrate and given a parade for getting you (and baby) through it alive, given that every birth is a life or death situation?

    Surely biology takes over most of your actions, to a great extent?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There are other concepts around feminism that I find interesting too, like where race and class intersect with gender to bring up different issues
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    You have views, want freedom and choice for yourself over childrearing, work conditions, buying a property etc. To me, these are all feminist concerns.

    Are they? Why?

    There part of me that agrees with geneve here. I have those concerns too but I doubt I can be described as a feminist. Is that because I believe that everyone should have rights in each of those areas, whether male or female whereas feminist may only be interested in female rights in those issues?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think the first 'wave' was solely concerned with women's rights.

    If we look at an issue whilst recognising a gendered power structure, it falls within feminisms' remit. Feminisms are now looking at masculinities, hegemonic ideals of masculinity and power formations in masculinities. But you knew that right?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    but that's what i mentioned before. the name itself 'feminism' does tend to give the idea of being only for the rights of women but i always believed that feminism was about equal rights for both sexes. at least some tenets of it are. i know that some extreme type of feminism isnt man friendly..
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    I'm not sure I completely agree.

    Shouldn't it be the midwife who is celebrate and given a parade for getting you (and baby) through it alive, given that every birth is a life or death situation?

    Surely biology takes over most of your actions, to a great extent?

    When we celebrate the mother, we celebrate the mother as a whole, which includes her biology.

    This celebration doesn't detract from the appreciation of the extremely dedicated support of midwives - nor that of and nurses and consultants
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