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More Trouble In The Middle East

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Indeed it is. Money which would not need to be used for defence and security had Israel not have to defend its illegally Occupied Territories and to keep its stronghold and choking control over Gaza.

    As I said in the previous post, even Hamas itself (never mind the PLO and moderate Palestinians, never mind Arab nations) have said repeteadly they are prepared to agree to full and permanent peace with Israel in exchange for the return of the occupied land in full. Yet Israel ignores this and continues to attempt to keep large chunks of the West Bank and Jerusalem for ever, while crying foul whenever Palestinians carry out attacks on them.

    Care to show when Hamas has in words, actions and writing stated they would agree to peace with Israel? That they would acknowledge Israel? Same with PLO. Their charter was never changed.

    You keep talking about stolen land, but it seems as if you keep forgetting how this land came under Israel's control. Do you want me to remind you that Israel has repeatedly since its very day of conception been attacked? Or does that not count? Does Israeli blood not count, cause we don't want to make a media circus out of our dead, but would rather keep their memory dignified than use them as a cheap gimmick?


    Why? Why spend so much effort, money and lives on it? Why not do what is right and just, and facilitate peace for the region as a bonus?

    Why spend so much money? To prevent more deaths and casualties. From my personal point of view, I do not want the next attack to be carried out against me or anyone I know. That is why you get searched every time enteing a mall, a theatre, or any other big public space.

    From what I can read Piccolo will be able to tell a bit more about that.
    Sderot is the most rocketed place on Earth. The number of deaths in the last 7 years have been 8. While I'm not suggesting 8 deaths and the associated distress caused to its citizens is an acceptable tally, try to compare that with the several thousand killed in Gaza over the the same period.

    Then think of the blockade, the control over Gaza's airspace and the constant restrictions of fuel and electricity that have turned Gaza into an unimaginable hellhole where living conditions are worse than almost anywhere else. 1.5m people living in appalling conditions in what effectively is the world's largest concentration camp.

    That is nothing short of a Crime Against Humanity. You might think such consequences are an adequate and justified response to a town being fired on causing less than 10 deaths in seven years, but I certainly do not. In fact, nothing on Earth could justify it.

    This is not about the 8 deaths you are mentioning. This is about blocking opportunity for more deaths to occur. This is for people to lead a normal life in peace, as they deserve. This is to preserve life.
    I am truly sorry for every civilian life lost, but you very well know that Israel has targetted Hamas offices and headquarters. No one should have to die because of this, but it goes for both side of the conflict which I think people quickly forget :)

    For Gods sake, we are discussing an organisation and their supporters who have built their ideology on the destruction of the state of Israel. You have seen them proclaiming the cease fire as a time for re-armament. They care more about the destruction of Israel and its citizens than the well-being of their fellow citizens. Otherwise they would not continue with these provocations as they have.
    Legitimise Hamas and you legitimise the value of blood over that of life. That is how I see it. And I think their own actions, sayings and writings would prove me right on that.
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,248 Skive's The Limit
    Runnymede wrote: »
    If the French or the Irish (in an alternate universe where they are not the kind lovely people that they are) started shooting rockets at us we would rightly expect our government to act, with force (military force, surprise surprise involves killing and destruction), to stop them from harming us. We would not expect our government to sit back and condemn it.

    The IRA did wage a bombing campaign against mainland Britain and the British Army did run operations in NI and at times British actions were questionable, but we never bombed the fuck out of Catholic areas with jets.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »

    . Members of family A have stopped at various stages, but not once tried family B to contemplate giving them their property back.



    It would be even more straightforward if Israel removed the air and land blockade of Gaza, dismantled all its illegal settlements and checkpoints from the West Bank, demolished the Apartheid Wall and withdrew to 1967 borders, as it should.


    When did 'family A' stop? And how did 'family B' come to get hold of the land in the irst place?

    See, your suggestions would probably be a bit easier to carry out if Gaza wasn't a hotbed of terrorism :)
    Numbers tell you that these preventions have managed to save life, so kinda hard arguing their legitimacy as long as they serve a purpose. Is it not? Or is everything free and equal when Hamas run around inside Israel blowing themselves up left, right and centre like they used to?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    When was the last time that Hamas actually fired a rocket into Israel? (whether it killed anyone or not). I heard it was over 6 months ago...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dear Wendy wrote: »
    Care to show when Hamas has in words, actions and writing stated they would agree to peace with Israel? That they would acknowledge Israel? Same with PLO. Their charter was never changed.
    I ought to start bookmarking news articles for future reference, I see. So far I've only found the article below but I remember vividly an interview with the former Hamas leader (the one Israel assassinated two or three years ago, ironically enough) in which he said he had put the offer on the table several time during talks.

    It has happened- perhaps not officially, but it has been definitely been offered. Sadly Israel is not interested.
    Former US president Jimmy Carter has said Hamas told him it would recognise Israel's right to live in peace if a deal is reached and approved by a Palestinian vote.

    Mr Carter made the comments following two meetings in Damascus with exiled Hamas chief Khaled Meshaal. The meetings angered Israel and the US, which consider the movement a terror group despite its victory in 2006 elections.

    'They said that they would accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders if approved by Palestinians and that they would accept the right of Israel to live as a neighbour, next door, in peace,' Mr Carter told the Israeli Council on Foreign Relations think-tank.
    Hamas would agree to such a peace deal, yet to be negotiated, provided it is 'submitted to Palestinians for their overall approval even though Hamas might disagree with some terms of the agreement,' Mr Carter said in Jerusalem.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0421/mideast.html?rss

    But what would be the point of putting such thing to the vote, if the Israeli refuses again and again and again to return the stolen land? Indeed, the scumbags (and I'm referring to the government, not the people before anyone starts) are actually still building more illegal settlements!

    Some will for peace, that!
    You keep talking about stolen land, but it seems as if you keep forgetting how this land came under Israel's control. Do you want me to remind you that Israel has repeatedly since its very day of conception been attacked? Or does that not count? Does Israeli blood not count, cause we don't want to make a media circus out of our dead, but would rather keep their memory dignified than use them as a cheap gimmick?
    No, it does not count when it comes to blatant land grabbing. Even if there was a genuine reason 41 years ago (there wasn't really other than arguably the Golan Heights) there has not been one for decades. Israel simply wants to keep as much of it as possible for expansionist/Greater Israel religious reasons.

    It has no right whatsoever to that land, it knows it and it should do the right thing and propose to return it in exchange for peace.

    Why spend so much money? To prevent more deaths and casualties. From my personal point of view, I do not want the next attack to be carried out against me or anyone I know. That is why you get searched every time enteing a mall, a theatre, or any other big public space.
    So wouldn't it make more sense to try to prevent people from wanting to kill you in the first place, rather than trying to physically stop them from carrying out attacks?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    It wasn't me who made the comments, it was the UN guy.

    Stop defending Israel because it is a murderous regime.

    The only reason nothing has been done is because they're in bed with the US. They've violated 66 UN security resolutions, been criticised by human rights organisations and governments the world over, but carry on.

    Iraq breached one and got the shit blown out of it. Figures.

    As for the whole "90% of your shit was invented in Israel so give it back" - the reality is that these MNCs are spread over several countries with R&D in different countries. If the political situation becomes untenable in Israel do you think they're going to want to be piling money in?

    I'm not calling for a one state solution, but seriously reading your posts you would think Israel are innocent in all of this. They're the one with the guns, the airplanes, the cluster bombs, the merkhavas, the conscription, the nukes. It's like saying WW2 / WW1 was all Germany's fault.

    Bear in mind Hamas came into existence as a reaction to Israel's military and intelligence / police activities (and, according to some link, was supported by parts of Israel as created a divided and weaker palestine). This is the same Israel that sends assasins around the world killing people it doesn't like.

    Scarier than the scientologists.

    No, I am not going to stop defending Israel. Yes Israel has flaws. Yes Israel makes mistakes. But nowhere near to the degree that warrants the sort of criticism it gets.

    At the moment the UN is nothing but a lameduck, and its resolutions mean NOTHING. Can you tell me why there have been entire agendas UN Human Rights Commissions devoted to Israel and never once has there been a UN Human Rights Commission Resolution regarding states such as China, Zimbabwe, Syria or Saudi Arabia? For gods sake genocide in Sudan has gone nearly unnoticed in the UN. So forgive me whilst I remove any faith I have in that institution. Nice idea, but inherently biased. Numbers speak for themselves. If you want more, I can provide that.

    Doesn't really matter if its MNCs/TNCs contracting Israeli firms or setting up own offices there - High tech industry concentration in Israel is booming and second only to that of Sillicon Valley. It would be hard for you to avoid, divest and boycott if you are planning on leading them same life as you do now.
    Especially regarding medication, where you will be happy to know that Israel has its own renowned pharmaceutical and highly acclaimed companies.

    And do you think England's government does not carry intelligence missions around the world? It's intricate and probably something we shouldn't really discuss as frankly neither of us have a chance in hell of knowing what exactly goes on - so no point in accusing, now is there?

    Either way, you can find your nifty quotes from UN personel accusing Israel of racism, comparing Israel to the South African Apartheid regime but for now actions and examples speak for themselves. As an example Israel has arab ministers, had a druze stand in for president when away - where are the arab ministers in the British cabinet? Where is the Pakistani standing in for Gordon Brown when he is away?`
    No, Israel is far from racist. Its whole ideology is based on the melting pot theory - and I think yours truly is a good example of that :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I really don't understand how Israel can believe a sustained bombing campaign will stop Hamas. Unless they wipe out everyone in Gaza their actions will just cause the citizens to resent Israel even more and thus provide more potential volenteers for rocket attacks or worse.

    Which Israel would respond to.

    Which will cause Hamas to react.

    It's a never ending cycle of death and destruction.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    I ought to start bookmarking news articles for future reference, I see. So far I've only found the article below but I remember vividly an interview with the former Hamas leader (the one Israel assassinated two or three years ago, ironically enough) in which he said he had put the offer on the table several time during talks.

    It has happened- perhaps not officially, but it has been definitely been offered. Sadly Israel is not interested.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0421/mideast.html?rss

    But what would be the point of putting such thing to the vote, if the Israeli refuses again and again and again to return the stolen land? Indeed, the scumbags (and I'm referring to the government, not the people before anyone starts) are actually still building more illegal settlements!

    Some will for peace, that!

    No, it does not count when it comes to blatant land grabbing. Even if there was a genuine reason 41 years ago (there wasn't really other than arguably the Golan Heights) there has not been one for decades. Israel simply wants to keep as much of it as possible for expansionist/Greater Israel religious reasons.

    It has no right whatsoever to that land, it knows it and it should do the right thing and propose to return it in exchange for peace.


    So wouldn't it make more sense to try to prevent people from wanting to kill you in the first place, rather than trying to physically stop them from carrying out attacks?

    So, Wendy hates Aladdin - she wants nothing but to see his blood spilling on the street, see him and his family eradicated, and makes no secret of this. Everything she does, everything she writes, everything she says bares evidence of this stance.
    She understands other people also find Aladdin annoying, but they cannot give her open support unless she says to Aladdin that she will stop to try and beat him up if he gives her a toy she threw in his face in the first place. She can't bear to say so herself, so sends someone else to tell Aladdin - but she is still playing tricks on Aladdin and her and her friends are still on their blog (just to make the right sort of analogy here) committed to get rid of Aladdin and take over the amazing tree house he has built.
    So how is that for an analogy?
    Personally, when someone says 'I will talk, but my charter still speaks of your destructions, my actions behind the scenes are still aimed at your destruction' then how much weight to the words actually have?

    I think you seem to forget something called the Gaza disengagement. I think you seem to forget non-responces after suicide bombs and other attacks. Just to see if that method works. Did it?
    No it's not comitting suicide and letting Hamas feast on the blood, but it's a start. Oh, and Israel doesn't have a charter which looks to see the destruction and blood of Palestinians. That's a good thing compared to the negotiation partner you speak so fondly of :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I must stop posting here because nothing makes me rage like Israel. But seriously Wendy, you talk like the propaganda minister or something.

    At the last election, Hamas changed it's election mandate thingy (you know the promises you make) from regaining all the land from Israel, to just preserving the land it has and the land stolen. It wasn't an official recognition of the state of Israel, but it was a start.

    Hamas was fueled and to some extent supported by Israel in order to provide opposition to fatah and undermine the political unity in Palestine. Bear in mind TODAY Israel has been carrying out airstrikes against the homes of Palestinian government ministers.

    The objective is not to seek peace. It is to destabilise the government (or remnants of it) in Palestine so that it becomes much easier for them to go on building settlements.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The 'disengagement' in question consists on Israel no longer occupying Gaza itself, but mantaining a permenent blockade of it including severe movement restrictions for its citizens, cutting off of supplies and refusal to hand over control of its airspace and waters.

    In other words, even during ceasefire periods, when no attacks or military operations are taking place, Gaza is still the world's largest Concentration Camp where citizens are all but prevented from leaving and are not allowed to free trade with the world and operate its own territorial airspace and waters.

    Gee, what more do these selfish Gazans want eh? There's no pleasing some people... :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And just to prove my point, the Israeli Navy has attacked an unarmed food aid boat that was trying to reach Gaza- in international waters as well.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/30/israel-gaza-aid-ship
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Aren't those two statements contradicting each other? In the first one you acknowledge that there is such thing as excessive force. In the second you are justifying Israel bombing public places. There were no terrorists hiding in the University, or at the coronation of Palestinian police cadets where scores of kids were killed in cold blood (unless Israel can prove otherwise of course- it always seems the world takes their word as all proof that's needed).

    Whereas the media eagerly checks and double check what Hamas tells us? That's a laugh.

    No they are not contradictory because it is not self-evident that the bombing of those places was not measured to damage the infrastructure Hamas uses to attack Israel. Take the university for example, Israel “ issued a statement claiming the university labs were used by Hamas as a weapons manufacturing and development centre and it accused university lecturers of teaching bomb-making.” LINK If this is true, then it was a legitimate target. If it is not true, if the university was not used by Hamas to make weapons, if the lecturers do not teach students how to make bombs, then Israel was absolutely wrong to bomb it, and it was a heinous and despicable act showing a disregard for the lives of innocents - and they're liars. But it may be true.

    What we know for certain though, is that Hamas and co, when they fire rockets into Israel, do so with the explicit aim of killing as many innocent people as possible. They don't even claim that they're trying to target places where bombs are made, they're happy when they kill innocent Israeli civilians because that was their intention.

    You cannot therefore say that the two sides are 'as bad as each other' if you look at their intentions.
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Given that Israel has fired probably hundreds of missiles, dozens of them simultaneously at countless different locations, the concept that they were all targeting Hamas is as improbable as absurd. Some of them targeted Hamas. Many others were simply designed to terrorise the general population and teach them a lesson.

    You might be right that they were trying to kill civilians, but firing ‘probably’ hundreds of missiles simultaneously isn’t, in itself, proof. The UN estimates that 51 civilians have been killed, LINK it doesn't say in what circumstances they were killed, and there is no evidence to suggest that the Israelis were trying to kill civilians.
    Aladdin wrote: »
    I shouldn't think this should be difficult to believe, seeing as Israel is very much on record as having carried out countless instances of collective punishment by cutting off vital supplies to the city for weeks on end and living hundreds of thousands without power or water. They're quite happy to castigate the entire population.

    Even if you're right, we should focus on the evidence surrounding this current situation, not automatically assume that something is happening now based only on the fact that something happened before.
    Aladdin wrote: »
    It would be even more straightforward if Israel removed the air and land blockade of Gaza, dismantled all its illegal settlements and checkpoints from the West Bank, demolished the Apartheid Wall and withdrew to 1967 borders, as it should.

    Some of those points would certainly make it more straightforward for Hamas et al to attack Israel.

    I agreed with you that a nuke would be unnecessary but you didn't say what, in your opinion, a 'proportional' response from Israel ought to be. What should they be doing?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Runnymede wrote: »
    I agreed with you that a nuke would be unnecessary but you didn't say what, in your opinion, a 'proportional' response from Israel ought to be. What should they be doing?
    Originally Posted by Aladdin
    It would be even more straightforward if Israel removed the air and land blockade of Gaza, dismantled all its illegal settlements and checkpoints from the West Bank, demolished the Apartheid Wall and withdrew to 1967 borders, as it should.

    That would be, if the objective was peace. Note it's not about leaving Israel altogether, it's about dismantling the illegal (internationally recognised as such) settlements and stopping the illegal acts that have gained it so many UN security sanctions over the years.

    Look at it this way. We are western people, and relate much better with Israel (they dress, talk like us whereas palestinians don't, which unfortunately counts for a lot). Both the UK and Israel are subject to the same kind of hidden terrorist attacks. EVEN so, it doesn't take a genius to see that Israel (by that, I mean the government) has a nasty agenda and that is to take the land they believe god gave them.

    Do you think that Hamas would have as much support if Israel were cooperative and started withdrawing from occupied territory? Bear in mind where Hamas is popular, is the -most- desperate area in the world.

    This has everything to do with Israel.

    Israel:
    Median age:
    total: 28.9 years
    male: 28.2 years
    female: 29.7 years (2008 est.)

    Gaza:
    Median age:
    total: 17.2 years
    male: 17 years
    female: 17.4 years (2008 est.)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Runnymede wrote: »
    Whereas the media eagerly checks and double check what Hamas tells us? That's a laugh.
    The media has never given any credibility to what Hamas says- that is one major issue that has persisted throughout the conflict. Most accounts of civilian deaths and targetting that we see on the press actually come from NGOs, charities and the Red Cross- and even them get regularly accused of lying by the Israeli cheerleaders.
    No they are not contradictory because it is not self-evident that the bombing of those places was not measured to damage the infrastructure Hamas uses to attack Israel. Take the university for example, Israel ? issued a statement claiming the university labs were used by Hamas as a weapons manufacturing and development centre and it accused university lecturers of teaching bomb-making.? LINK If this is true, then it was a legitimate target. If it is not true, if the university was not used by Hamas to make weapons, if the lecturers do not teach students how to make bombs, then Israel was absolutely wrong to bomb it, and it was a heinous and despicable act showing a disregard for the lives of innocents - and they're liars. But it may be true.
    A likely story, that...
    What we know for certain though, is that Hamas and co, when they fire rockets into Israel, do so with the explicit aim of killing as many innocent people as possible. They don't even claim that they're trying to target places where bombs are made, they're happy when they kill innocent Israeli civilians because that was their intention.

    You cannot therefore say that the two sides are 'as bad as each other' if you look at their intentions.
    But they are. At the end of the day, it is the Israelis who continue to illegally occupy the other side's land and to subject 1.5m people to fascist concentration camp conditions. There is only one side doing the oppressing. This is by no means a conflict amongst equal partners and Israel does not need to kill as many civilians as it could. All it needs to do is to use its disproportionate military might to apply the right pressure and to keep the status quo.

    This letter to the Guardian today expresses it better than I could:

    Nowhere in its statements does the Israeli government suggest what the Palestinians should do to oppose the existence of the 235,000 settlers illegally on the West Bank, to secure the release of the 11,000 Palestinians in Israeli prisons without trial, or to obtain the removal of the wall that forces the Palestinians into a huge ghetto - with some 70% unable to support themselves and having to rely on UN food aid. All of these provoke Palestinian radicalism.

    Unlike the Israelis, the Palestinians do not have aircraft, helicopters, ships or even tanks, and can be attacked with complete impunity. What does Israel suggest that the Palestinians should do to defend themselves and their land? Presumably they have some advice; after all, Israel does not hesitate to launch military initiatives in support of its own perceived territorial interest.

    Livni and Netanyahu are not fools and I am sure that they are well aware that, as expressed in your leading article, the attacks are counterproductive, in which case one is driven to the inexorable conclusion that Israel does not wish ever to reach a two-state peace settlement with the Palestinians, precisely because it would prevent them from occupying the entire West Bank




    You might be right that they were trying to kill civilians, but firing ?probably? hundreds of missiles simultaneously isn?t, in itself, proof. The UN estimates that 51 civilians have been killed, LINK it doesn't say in what circumstances they were killed, and there is no evidence to suggest that the Israelis were trying to kill civilians.
    The figure is almost certainly a lot higher
    The number of civilians killed has continued to rise. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency, which supports Palestinian refugees and has large programmes in Gaza, said it believed at least 62 civilians were dead, at a conservative estimate. The overall number of injured is thought to be as high as 1,400, although Gazan hospitals are so overcrowded and short of medicine and equipment that they are turning away all but the most seriously wounded.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/30/israel-gaza-attacks


    Even if you're right, we should focus on the evidence surrounding this current situation, not automatically assume that something is happening now based only on the fact that something happened before.
    That would be a fair point if this was a criminal case by an individual in a Court of Law. When it comes to war crimes and atrocities, we tend to take the view that if a regime has been happily commiting certain atrocities at will, there is every reason to suspect they are still at it whenever it looks as if wrongdoing has taken place again.

    Remember the war on Lebanon two years ago? An entire neighbourhood in Beirut was obliterated by Israel. They still haven't apologised for it. Their excuse is that Hezbollah's sympathisers were believed to live in the area. So that's alright then.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote: »
    The IRA did wage a bombing campaign against mainland Britain and the British Army did run operations in NI and at times British actions were questionable, but we never bombed the fuck out of Catholic areas with jets.

    Well the two situations are analogous and I'm not a commander so I don't know how the British or the Israelis decided on the best way to act. I assume it was partly because if they had sent in the Israeli army many more Israelis would have been killed.

    At any rate, blame for the death of Palestinian civilians falls squarely with Hamas. The Israeli's are reacting to Hamas's attempt to kill their own civilians and they're trying to stop that from happening. Hamas's actions are the cause of all the horrible things that are happening to innocent Palestinians. Hamas don't care about the lives of Israeli civilians, but if they care one ounce about the lives of Palestinian civilians - their own women and children - then why don't they look at the misery their own actions have caused and stop for the sake of their own people?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jesus Christ. So Israel can kill whoever it likes, because it's Hamas' fault?

    Hamas has always been an extremist reaction to Israel. Just like the IRA was an extremist reaction to the British and the shitty stuff they did in NI. The more desperate the people of Gaza become, the more will become radicalised.

    The whole point is Israel knows this, but it suits their purposes perfectly. They would prefer a divided, infighting palestine to a united palestine. As it stands, Hamas can't get international support, so despite the 66 UN security sanctions Israel have violated, everyone (including you) can justify it saying 'well, its because of Hamas...'.

    Remember it was the 1950s when this all started, Hamas didn't exist until the 1980s. But 'fight fire with fire' is sure to work, isn't it?

    As has been pointed out, even this year even Hamas put forward terms for a permenent peace treaty that was thrown out by Israel, as it called for a return to the 1967 borders.

    The blood is on Israel's hands. Hamas, is a creation of Israel
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Runnymede wrote: »
    At any rate, blame for the death of Palestinian civilians falls squarely with Hamas.
    Exactly the same logic could be applied to innocent Israeli civilians killed by Hamas- it's the Israeli government's fault for oppressing a people to the point where thousands are queuing up to fight back.
    The Israeli's are reacting to Hamas's attempt to kill their own civilians and they're trying to stop that from happening. Hamas's actions are the cause of all the horrible things that are happening to innocent Palestinians.
    Funny that because,

    1. Israel's illegal occupation of Palestine has been around for much longer than Hamas.

    2. Hamas was created as a resistance/fighting force against the Israeli occupation and opression of Palestinians.
    Hamas don't care about the lives of Israeli civilians, but if they care one ounce about the lives of Palestinian civilians - their own women and children - then why don't they look at the misery their own actions have caused and stop for the sake of their own people?
    Again, the same could be said of Israel. With far more reason as well, seeing as the very core of the problem is that one set of people are illegally occupying the other's land and oppressing them.

    So not only is Israel doing something that is illegal and indescribably wrong, but such actions cost it many lives and phenomenal amounts of money and resources.

    I sure know which government gives far less of a shit about its citizens...

    I'll ask you again what the letter to the Guardian I posted earlier asked: what are Palestinians supposed to do? How are they supposed to defend themselves? How are they supposed to get their land back? Hope that Israel will give it to them? LOL!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Jesus Christ. So Israel can kill whoever it likes, because it's Hamas' fault?

    No it can't 'kill whoever it likes': it has the right to defend itself from attack which is what it is trying to do.
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Hamas has always been an extremist reaction to Israel. Just like the IRA was an extremist reaction to the British and the shitty stuff they did in NI. The more desperate the people of Gaza become, the more will become radicalised.

    The whole point is Israel knows this, but it suits their purposes perfectly. They would prefer a divided, infighting palestine to a united palestine. As it stands, Hamas can't get international support, so despite the 66 UN security sanctions Israel have violated, everyone (including you) can justify it saying 'well, its because of Hamas...'.

    Why don't they take our justification away by renouncing violence, no longer teaching their children to hate Jews and accepting Israel's right to exist?
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Remember it was the 1950s when this all started, Hamas didn't exist until the 1980s. But 'fight fire with fire' is sure to work, isn't it?

    As has been pointed out, even this year even Hamas put forward terms for a permenent peace treaty that was thrown out by Israel, as it called for a return to the 1967 borders.

    The blood is on Israel's hands. Hamas, is a creation of Israel

    And as has been pointed out there is nothing strange about Israel distrusting terms given to Jimmy Carter by people who are pledged to the murder of Jews, people who continue to attack Israeli civilians, teach their children to hate Jews, and refuse to accept Israel's right to exist. Altering those points are precursors to negotiations not the bloody aim of them. In what bizzaro world are those unreasonable demands to people who desire peace?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Exactly the same logic could be applied to innocent Israeli civilians killed by Hamas- it's the Israeli government's fault for oppressing a people to the point where thousands are queuing up to fight back.

    Except it's not the Israeli government's fault for oppressing those people, those people have been oppressed because Hamas (and others before them) have continuously tried to destroy it since its establishment. Hamas et al continue that long tradition and so the occupation continues.
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Funny that because,

    1. Israel's illegal occupation of Palestine has been around for much longer than Hamas.

    2. Hamas was created as a resistance/fighting force against the Israeli occupation and opression of Palestinians.

    I meant the immediate crisis going on right now. Israel would not have attacked Gaza, as it has done, if Hamas et al were not launching rockets, as they are, at Israel. That is the immediate reason why bombs are being dropped on Gaza. It would not continue if they stopped.

    Aladdin wrote: »
    Again, the same could be said of Israel. With far more reason as well, seeing as the very core of the problem is that one set of people are illegally occupying the other's land and oppressing them.

    So not only is Israel doing something that is illegal and indescribably wrong, but such actions cost it many lives and phenomenal amounts of money and resources.

    I sure know which government gives far less of a shit about its citizens...

    I'll ask you again what the letter to the Guardian I posted earlier asked: what are Palestinians supposed to do? How are they supposed to defend themselves? How are they supposed to get their land back? Hope that Israel will give it to them? LOL!

    In relation to the immediate crisis Hamas should stop firing rockets into Gaza, I imagine the air-strikes would stop if they did. In the long-term Hamas should proclaim that they no longer wish to kill Israelis and they should act accordingly. They should proclaim that they accept that Israel has a right to exist within 1967 borders, and they should stop teaching their children to hate Jews. If they don't attack they won't be attacked. The Israeli's will negotiate with them and hopefully they can come to some compromise.
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,248 Skive's The Limit
    Runnymede wrote: »
    Except it's not the Israeli government's fault for oppressing those people, those people have been oppressed because Hamas (and others before them) have continuously tried to destroy it since its establishment.

    The state of Israel is significantly older than Hamas. Opression of the Arabs in that region began long before Palestinian terrorism.

    The state of Israel was manafactured by the US and Britain without the consent of the Arabs living there. A mass Jewish invasion over the course of 50 years or so.
    No wonder their pissed.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote: »
    The state of Israel is significantly older than Hamas. Opression of the Arabs in that region began long before Palestinian terrorism.

    The state of Israel was manafactured by the US and Britain without the consent of the Arabs living there. A mass Jewish invasion over the course of 50 years or so.
    No wonder their pissed.

    True -if I was Palestinian I be pissed too.

    Of course if I was Israeli I may also be a bit paranoid about my security given what happened 60 years ago.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Runnymede wrote: »
    Except it's not the Israeli government's fault for oppressing those people, those people have been oppressed because Hamas (and others before them) have continuously tried to destroy it since its establishment. Hamas et al continue that long tradition and so the occupation continues.
    The occupation has been around for far longer than Hamas. Israel never expressed any intetion of returning the land and withdrawing. Little wonder than eventually Hamas was created.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    True -if I was Palestinian I be pissed too.

    Of course if I was Israeli I may also be a bit paranoid about my security given what happened 60 years ago.

    But at the same time people in N Ireland still hold onto the conquest and the religious persecution a few hundred years ago. The people today are different people, and in my opinion its not politically relevent for Israel to justify it's stance by using the holocaust. We can remember it in history, but war reparations were paid, the german government did officially apologise and so on and so forth.

    The palestinians played no part in it.

    Really I appreciate that Hamas is doing no good by rocketing Israel but Israel really does have the ball in it's court. By the intensive air and naval strikes, it hasn't solved the problem of insurgency, it has pushed them underground and from watching the news this morning in a relatively unprecedented move they are firing rockets from within residential blocks.

    Now it remains to be seen whether Israel will use this as justification to attack these blocks with missiles (collateral damage, blame Hamas), or try to restrain itself like the rest of the world is calling for (bear in mind they are massing merkhevas - heavily armed and armoured main battle tanks which I really wonder if they're the best tool for taking insurgents - and infantry to cross the border) - if it did exercise restraint, maybe another ceasefire would be possible if they made some concessions. Then again, politically, that would be suicide.

    So I think further bloodshed is the only way this will go for now. You can't stop a paramilitary organisation by shooting at it, look at the IRA, real IRA, and so on. If anything it's going to gain sympathisers from across the world and region to rise up themselves against Israel.

    But then again, is an excuse for a landgrab a bad thing politically for Israel? Even if a lot of the people in Israel are moderates who support peace and fairness for Palestinians, a fair few of those voters will still be of the zionist persuasion as you can see when they pulled out of one of their illegal settlements.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    But at the same time people in N Ireland still hold onto the conquest and the religious persecution a few hundred years ago. The people today are different people, and in my opinion its not politically relevent for Israel to justify it's stance by using the holocaust. We can remember it in history, but war reparations were paid, the german government did officially apologise and so on and so forth.

    The palestinians played no part in it..

    Well, duh... of course the Palestinians paid no part in it. I never said they did. But you can't forget history or pretend it plays no part in a societies make-up (or even worse as many people on this board seem to do - whinge about what happened forty years ago and then say the events twenty years before that are irrelevant).

    The point is that the Holocaust has made many Jews rather paranoid about people who preach hatred against them and convinced that to survive they have to protect themselves because no-one else is going to do it (and I can't say they're wrong - Bosnia, Rwanda and sundry other places show).

    You may think it's in the past, but to someone who may have lost all their grandparents, great uncles, aunts etc it's a warning that the Jews need their own homeland and they need to protect it.

    Really I appreciate that Hamas is doing no good by rocketing Israel but Israel really does have the ball in it's court. By the intensive air and naval strikes, it hasn't solved the problem of insurgency, it has pushed them underground and from watching the news this morning in a relatively unprecedented move they are firing rockets from within residential blocks.

    Ah, the old chestnut. Only white people can act, those brown people have no free will and can only react, :rolleyes:

    It takes two to fight a war and the Palestinians could do stop their attacks on Israel, stop their school books preaching that Jews are pigs etc and build up trust. They can do this... Israel isn't stopping them.


    Now it remains to be seen whether Israel will use this as justification to attack these blocks with missiles (collateral damage, blame Hamas), or try to restrain itself like the rest of the world is calling for (bear in mind they are massing merkhevas - heavily armed and armoured main battle tanks which I really wonder if they're the best tool for taking insurgents - and infantry to cross the border) - if it did exercise restraint, maybe another ceasefire would be possible if they made some concessions. Then again, politically, that would be suicide.

    Perhaps, perhaps not. I would suggest though if someone is firing artillery near where you live you move pronto. Hamas is taking a sensible military step. Israel can't ignore it - to do so will just cause more casualties in the long run as it allows Hamas to act with impunity
    So I think further bloodshed is the only way this will go for now. You can't stop a paramilitary organisation by shooting at it, look at the IRA, real IRA, and so on. If anything it's going to gain sympathisers from across the world and region to rise up themselves against Israel.

    On the bloodhsed you're right. On the IRA you're wrong... We had talk with the IRA in the 70's - they wanted a complete British pullout. It was only by killing and jailing them they came to the realisation they couldn't win and accepted that any change in Northern Ireland's situation would be by democratic methods.

    But then again, is an excuse for a landgrab a bad thing politically for Israel? Even if a lot of the people in Israel are moderates who support peace and fairness for Palestinians, a fair few of those voters will still be of the zionist persuasion as you can see when they pulled out of one of their illegal settlements

    Well you can also see that the Israeli riot police love a good baton swing when evicting them. There is not enough votes in the settlements to make it worth a Government's while if by removing them and pulling out of the occupied territories led to a peaceful resolution - trouble is the actions of the other side make it less likely that this will happen.

    It's a vicous circle, but laying all the blame on Israel won't break it (if anything it just makes it harder to do so).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    The occupation has been around for far longer than Hamas. Israel never expressed any intetion of returning the land and withdrawing. Little wonder than eventually Hamas was created.

    Are you a spin doctor?

    Because if you're not you're wasted in youir current job.

    That's a brilliant example of something which is factually true, but entirely misleading. The occupation has been around longer than Hamas, but your statement ignores the existence of the PLO, the invasion of Israel by Jordan, Egypt, etc. Israel didn't wander in and take the land for shit and giggles, but because of a sitaution where it was under threat.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The reason I say the ball is in Israel's court is because at least to me it appears Hamas isn't completely organised and you will get some idiot with a rocket running off by himself and going to try and attack Israel. Israel then in my opinion undertakes collective punishment and it just stirs up animosity.

    I'm not saying that Hamas is justified, but as it is - it is Israel that as a state is taking the decision to blow up the gaza strip. This has been condemned internationally (except by the US).

    To me, it just seems like Israel's motivations are political and they are using the concept of security as an excuse. Also as for N. Ireland it's certainly much more complicated than 'the British killed lots of IRA members so they declared a truce'.

    I'd just like the bloodshed to end and my opinion is worth no more than the next persons but still - I do wholly believe Israel hold the ability to create a long lasting peace if they are committed to it. Hamas would lose support if Israel supported ordinary Palestinians rather than victimise them. Or ideally, the organisation Hamas would make it's own concessions and there would be a compromise. What compromises have Israel ever stated they are willing to make, other than not blowing up Gaza which should be a given.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »

    But then again, is an excuse for a landgrab a bad thing politically for Israel? Even if a lot of the people in Israel are moderates who support peace and fairness for Palestinians, a fair few of those voters will still be of the zionist persuasion as you can see when they pulled out of one of their illegal settlements.

    (Have only read the last couple of comments. Not going to go through the whole thread at the moment)

    Hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of Israeli citizens are Zionists. I will have you know that Zionist is not the dirty word you try to make it. It is merely the ideology that the Jewish people deserve a home land where they have their right to excersize their right of self-determination.
    The details of how to go about this are highly debated, just like the details of democracy, social democracy, socialism, liberalism and communism can be found in different variations.

    On another note, two Israelis where shot in Denmark yesterday, with the intent to kill. So people say that Hamas and their supporters are merely a 'reaction' to what is going on. Yet them and their supporters just show that this is not a question of palpable politics at hand, its the fact that in words and actions they show over and over that just being Israeli, merely existing, is a crime in their eyes. It doesn't matter where Israelis are or what they do, they are meant to be eradicated.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    This has been condemned internationally (except by the US).

    Erm, depends on how you look at condemn. Palestinian supporters who cause riots in London, fair enough they condemn. But even Arab news papers, the Egyptian foreign minister, and voices from the PA are supportive of Israel's operation.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dear Wendy wrote: »
    On another note, two Israelis where shot in Copenhagen yesterday, with the intent to kill. So people say that Hamas and their supporters are merely a 'reaction' to what is going on. Yet them and their supporters just show that this is not a question of palpable politics at hand, its the fact that in words and actions they show over and over that just being Israeli, merely existing, is a crime in their eyes. It doesn't matter where Israelis are or what they do, they are meant to be eradicated.

    There were probably two palestinians shot somewhere as well. Not sure what relevence it has. Unless ofc it was Hamas who shot them, then it would be somewhat similar to Mossad sending it's terror agents around the world I guess.

    And there is a difference between believing they deserve a homeland (and dont palestinians deserve one as well?) and being expansionist. Fair enough its a small area and it is hotly contested but there has been a big push to get more Jewish settlers into Israel and expand into the neighbouring countries and 'assimilate' the land so to speak.

    And as for the international condemnation, well I guess it depends if you read solely pro-Israel sources as it seems evident that you do. Even the wording you use is loaded. I don't think it would matter what scale Israel was 'overstepping the line' to you. They could kill 400 people with missiles and rockets and bombs whilst preparing a massive ground offensive with heavy armour against a predominantly civilian population and you would defend them. They could kill 4000. They could commit genocide.

    But it's ok, because afterall, everyone hates Israel. Like I said earlier, I have more in common with the average Israeli than the average Palestinian and common sense would dictate I'm going to empathise with them. Even having done so, I still am shocked and appalled at Israel's actions that are causing horrendous loss of life and destruction.

    http://aljazeera.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=198942
    Rather than continuing the truce, the Israeli government has once again chosen to adopt strategies of violence that are tragically akin to the one's deployed by Hamas, only the Israeli ones are much more lethal.

    If the Israeli government really cared about its citizens and the country's long term ability to sustain itself in the Middle East, it would abandon the use of violence and talk with its enemies.

    Wraps it up really. It depends whether you believe that or not though, and I know from reading what you've put in the past that it's unlikely you ever will.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    The reason I say the ball is in Israel's court is because at least to me it appears Hamas isn't completely organised and you will get some idiot with a rocket running off by himself and going to try and attack Israel. Israel then in my opinion undertakes collective punishment and it just stirs up animosity.

    But Hamas isn't doing much to stop them. It would also be easy to reform their education system and not have its supporters wandering around chanting death to Israel.


    I'm not saying that Hamas is justified, but as it is - it is Israel that as a state is taking the decision to blow up the gaza strip. This has been condemned internationally (except by the US)

    And? If I was an Israeli and lived next door to people who've been throwing rockets may way during a ceasefire and then I'm told to hold hard it would just increase my belief that the international community has no willingness to protect me and so I have to rely on the State.
    To me, it just seems like Israel's motivations are political and they are using the concept of security as an excuse. Also as for N. Ireland it's certainly much more complicated than 'the British killed lots of IRA members so they declared a truce'.

    Of course its slightly simplified. there's entire books been written on the IRA ceasefire, I wrote a few lines. However, the broad truth is that the IRA only came to the table and accepted that Northern Ireland is part of the UK because of their military failure. That military failure was caused by killing and jailing more IRA men than they could tolerate (plus putting in so many touts that half the IRA operations were compromised before they began). It's slightly off-topic however, because there are very few similarities between Northern Ireland and the Middle East, apart from some people shooting at other people.
    I'd just like the bloodshed to end and my opinion is worth no more than the next persons but still - I do wholly believe Israel hold the ability to create a long lasting peace if they are committed to it. Hamas would lose support if Israel supported ordinary Palestinians rather than victimise them. Or ideally, the organisation Hamas would make it's own concessions and there would be a compromise. What compromises have Israel ever stated they are willing to make, other than not blowing up Gaza which should be a given

    I think most people want the bloodshed to end. However, in my opinion demonising Israel not only doesn't stop it, but actually encourages it.
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