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More Trouble In The Middle East

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    More atrocities revealed:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7817926.stm

    Twisted, evil fuckers :mad:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :banghead:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm sure it's just hamas propaganda.

    Anyway, the situation has become dangerously unstable with the potential of a second front opening up on the lebanon border. The US offered a presidential statement whatever that is but the arab states pushing for a UN security council resolution that calls for an immediate cease for hostilities said no way, the resolution only.

    So after lobbying for two weeks with all the bloodshed going on the most anxious moments and coming up with whether the US will veto the new resolution. The French are working hard with the Eygptians to try to broker a cease fire but there's a lot of politics going on.

    Here's a question. It was previously the british mandate of palestine. So whilst they have their own government now, don't we have some overall responsibility to help mediate situations? Instead it's France that has picked up the ball. We can only hope the political stuff goes well or else there will only be more bloodshed on both sides of the border.

    Though despite the big PR effort on Israel's part, I've seen plenty of Israeli flags with the star of david replaced with swastikas flying around the internet. One can only wonder if Israel has gained anything of substance from this conflict, other than saying 'we didnt lose as many as the other guys!'. I dunno. Secret land grab? Destroyed hamas?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    UN Suspends Aid Operation

    as far as I can tell everyone who has dual nationality is getting out, its a scary situation

    Hmmm, whats this?
    Israeli bulldozers crossed into Gaza during the lull and destroyed a number of houses, Al Jazeera's Alan Fisher, reporting from southern Israel near the border, said.

    In other news, Muslims in Indonesia are signing up for the army in an anti-Israel recruitment drive. Bad to worse. Isn't there a limit on how messed up the situation can get?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Still silence from one or two previously vociferous defenders of Israel's actions. Perhaps they're secretly ashamed?

    Here today we have further proof (if anyone was needed) that Israel does deliberately target civilians:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7819492.stm


    I was wrong my previous assertment that the Israeli government is as bad as the likes of Hamas, and should be treated as terrorists just as Hamas is.

    The Israeli government and its armed forces are, in fact, far worse than Hamas, Hezbollah and every terrorist/fighting group ever to disgrace the region.

    May they rot in hell all eternity.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've just seen some firsthand evidence (whether it's Israeli government or whatever) of the propaganda agents. There's basically a firefox plugin / desktop thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaphone_desktop_tool

    and it's been going off beeping and telling people which websites to go onto to say pro-Israel things about the war.

    edit: now it's getting on my nerves as basically another board I'm on which has currently been flagged as needing assistance and the comments are like "anti semitic goyim shit". Goyim is an offensive word used by jews for non jewish people. Invasion of cyber space :| (this wasn't in an anti-semitic thread, btw, it was someone posting saying we are being targetted by this 'megaphone' thing)

    edit2: now being linked to some 'pro israel' forums and if anyone calls this an anti israel forum... well its better to be on this side than spouting the hateful, racist shit some of them are coming out with. :|
    Ending the Lebanon conflict may actually be quite simple, just like ending most of conflicts in the Middle East--get different peoples out of each others' crosshairs. Yes, I'm talking about ethnic cleansing. And, no, not the one that involves genocide.

    Israel has the means, but does it have the guts to chase all the Hezbollah-supporting Shiites our of Lebanon, and into Syria if the next war breaks out?

    Discuss.


    edit3: I missed his sig
    "Zionism didn't come out to be for peace. Zionism came out to be for the Jewish state."

    that's scary, and scarier still that it's people of that extreme mindset who are trolling around the internet and making sure people see things their way. it is a conspiracy.

    edit4: They've hit wikipedia too it seems - would explain why every time i try to change "Nazi" to "German" (on a certain article where it was used incorrectly) it got changed back and the talk page was ignored.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So as Wendy said, all Israeli's are looking forward to the day Palestinians have their own land too.
    OK guys, I am thinking of moving to Israel in a year or so. I'm secular, but as a life-long supporter of Israel, I want to do something to defend the land that is rightfully ours. I was thinking of moving to Tel Aviv but then I quite like the idea of moving to a settlement, because I think I'd meet loads of nice, like-minded and well-balanced people. Has anyone here lived in one? Can anyone tell me which ones are the best to live, ie, the nicest scenery, the best restaurants, and that sort of thing?

    Also, this may be a stupid question, but do any of the settlements have decent nightclubs and bars that play good music? Where I live, there isn't much of a varied choice of places to go out, as it's just a medium sized town, and the choice is rather limited. Would things be any different on the West Bank?

    There has also been talk of Israel re-taking the Gaza Strip. If they did that, have there been any proposals for settlements to be rebuilt? I quite like the look of the Gaza Strip's coastline, and I think it'd be quite a cool place to live. Do you guys think I'd be able to come and look at any places to rent out any time soon, say, in a year?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Current targets:

    http://ws.giyus.org/points/list?group_id=1&page=1

    edit: "typical goy, ignoring everything my people have done for you" is the line they're taking :/
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    it seem like its gonna kick off tomorrow between the two rallies in london tomorrow...the met is preparing for a full scale riot...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    UN spokesman concerned that one of Israel's actions may constitute a war crime.
    A top UN official has said one Israeli action could constitute a war crime.

    Navi Pillay, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, was referring to the alleged failure of the Israeli military to help wounded civilians in Gaza, in an incident revealed by the International Committee of the Red Cross on Thursday.

    The ICRC said its staff had found four weak and scared children beside their mothers' bodies in houses hit by shelling in the Zeitoun neighbourhood of Gaza City.

    Ms Pillay told the BBC: "The incident the Red Cross describes is very troubling because it has all the elements of what constitutes a war crime.

    "There is an obligation to protect the wounded, to treat the sick, to remove them to safety and here, according to the Red Cross, Israeli soldiers just stood by and did nothing for these four children and one adult who were too weak to move."

    Damn the hamas propaganda to hell. According to one of the pro Israel forums I was lurking on, the UN has actually been infiltrated by muslims who are seeking any aims to further their mission of the elimination of the Jewish race, so anything the UN says or does is irrelevent.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Israel dropped leaflets on Gaza City warning residents that the military was about to "escalate" the offensive and begin a "new phase in the war on terror".

    :eek2:

    Also...
    A binding resolution passed by the UN security council late on Thursday failed to bring peace to the Gaza Strip, with Israel arguing that it has the right to self-defence.

    *shrug* evidence if we needed any more that Israel is unaccountable. If the UN security council passes a binding resolution it is the obligation of the member states to abide by that resolution, not "carry on because the other side is...". It's like being at school, having a fight, the teacher shouts to stop but you carry on.

    Not cool.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    and all this talk of hamas breaking the ceasefire is a lie, people were too busy focusing on america then

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

    nb: yes i know hamas are nasty, im just pointing out a lie by the media atm
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I read a report today saying they were using white phosphorous, a chemical agent that burns your skin off (similar to napalm? i dunno). Anyway, wide condemnation from the usual humanitarian groups though I think by this point the Israeli lobby has just learned to drown the condemnation out.

    Just coming to the realisation really that it is a violation of human rights that is going on and that nothing will come of it because of the way politics works.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A resolution condemning Israel's military offensive in Gaza has been adopted by the UN Human Rights Council.

    Official condemnation, three weeks and 800+ dead later. I was watching the webcam feed of Gaza last night (I have to admit... the conflict has become a personal obsession of sorts) and the explosions going off were ridiculously big, not just targetted bombs but ones that can happily take out a building or two you'd expect to drop from a B52 or something.

    Back to the news though - unsurpisingly Israel has dismissed the resolution, and all the nations with no backbone (i.e. us, America) abstained from voting so as not to spoil their political record with Israel. Lots of lucrative weapons contracts to be had, afterall :yum:

    Israel's admission of committing war crimes, but justifying them
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    A resolution condemning Israel's military offensive in Gaza has been adopted by the UN Human Rights Council.
    And that is as far as it will go, because the fucking US government will ensure, as it has for the last 40 years, that any UN Security Council resolution that even dares to suggest Israel is less than pefect gets vetoed.

    Meantime the war crimes and crimes against humanity continue.

    Any other country on Earth (bar the nuclear nations) would have been bombed to fuck and forcibly regime-changed a long time ago by a freedom-loving US-led 'coallition of the willing' a long time ago. This one doesn't even get threat of sanctions.

    Fucking sickening.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Okay im probably going to get mauled to pieces here.

    Anyway, i'm in no way defending what Israel have done and are doing. Of course its terrible hearing news that schools have been bombed and ambulances attacked but i saw a couple of interesting videos recently showing Palestinian fighters basically using ambulances as troop carriers.

    You could quite plainly see that there was no one hurt or injured inside the ambulance, only fighters carrying weapons. Next thing that happens is the ambulance comes under fire from the Israeli's and the next morning you probably hear on the news that the Israeli's have attacked an innocent ambulance. Its ridiculous!

    Both sides are as bad as each other. Anyway, thats all i wanted to add. Maul away.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not gonna maul you goodfella. The thing is, there is lots of open criticism of hamas, but the world governments don't seem to criticise Israel. There have been plenty of incidents where they have fired on innocents whether knowingly or unknowingly. But Israel can justify this by saying...
    Additionally, numerous flippant remarks by senior Israeli politicians and generals, including Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister, refusing to make a distinction between civilian people and institutions and fighters - "Hamas doesn't ... and neither should we" is how Livni puts it - are rightly being seen as admissions of war crimes.

    Two wrongs don't make a right, and all that. The problem is the more people who are killed the gaza strip, the more sympathy in the region and around the world hamas will gain.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    The thing is, there is lots of open criticism of hamas, but the world governments don't seem to criticise Israel.

    Um ... they DO criticize Israel but they certainly don't take stronger action than that.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote: »
    Um ... they DO criticize Israel but they certainly don't take stronger action than that.

    Well if you mean 800 deaths later they begin shuffling their feet and scratching their neck saying 'ah, well... that wasn't really very nice was it?' then maybe. But the big players - the US and the EU - have been quite slow to criticise. So hesitant in fact (as far as I know all the US has said repeatedly is "Israel has the right to defend itself") that nobody could be sure of their sincerity.

    Here's a stupid example, but I'm just trying to make a point: if you are out late at night and your parents at first don't say anything, but then realise and one says that wasnt very good, and the other says well, he/she has a right to have a private life, it gives the impression that maybe 'misbehaving' wasn't so bad afterall.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    GoodFella wrote: »
    Okay im probably going to get mauled to pieces here.

    Anyway, i'm in no way defending what Israel have done and are doing. Of course its terrible hearing news that schools have been bombed and ambulances attacked but i saw a couple of interesting videos recently showing Palestinian fighters basically using ambulances as troop carriers.

    You could quite plainly see that there was no one hurt or injured inside the ambulance, only fighters carrying weapons. Next thing that happens is the ambulance comes under fire from the Israeli's and the next morning you probably hear on the news that the Israeli's have attacked an innocent ambulance. Its ridiculous!

    Both sides are as bad as each other. Anyway, thats all i wanted to add. Maul away.

    no mauling, there is always sneaky stuff like that going around to twist things to make one of the countries sound bad
    glad you brought it up actually
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The whole situation is subject to a huge chicken-and-egg problem, going back millenia.

    The core of the modern problem is that extreme situations provoke correspondingly extreme reactions, and give rise to more radical action. The fact of the matter is that Israel's actions were in large part responsible for Hamas getting elected - if they'd done more to broker lasting peace with Fatah, instead of successive administrations pandering to the electorate (something virtually all democratic governments are subject to) we may not have seen a Hamas administration.

    It has been stated before, but the problem is that Hamas has been the only cite of authority, healthcare, security and education in Gaza now for quite some time. While outside we see the rockets, the bombs, the 'death to Israel' rallies, they are also there providing for people in desparate situations where no one else will. That Israel has allowed an extremist group to be the only source of social stability for so many people is its worst failing in terms of its own security.

    The blockades, the unimaginable unemployment, the detentions, the 'targeted killings' - they are under immense pressure, the kind we just can't imagine.

    I don't like Hamas - they indoctrinate children, they manipulate people, they ARE fascistic, they DON't respect human rights, they DO murder those who speak out and they ARE dangerous. That a people should be driven into the arms of such people is symptomatic of the failure of Israel's policy.

    I read an earlier comment from Flashman comparing this with the Irish situation, and stating that Hamas will be forced to stop because their infrastructure will be rendered ineffective. I disagree, because the IRA were fighting in and for a society which, while it had problems, isn't comparable to Gaza in terms of the immense social, economic and public health hardships that they have to endure.

    Over the years we have been forced to pick sides - Jews or Arabs, in terms of public opinion. Israel DOES have a right to defend itself, but they have stretched that right to insane lengths and are guilty of appauling crimes the eclipse anything that Hamas could dream of in their wildest antisemitic fantasies. I don't doubt that Hamas would do similar things if they could, but the fact is that they can't - and that needs to be remembered.

    I cannot understand what person of sanity can watch a near 1000 people be killed by such a blunt machine in a small space and claim this is a reasonable response, or that it is going to contribute to the long term security of Israel. It might win and election, but it's winner will not be presiding over peaceful times.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I read an earlier comment from Flashman comparing this with the Irish situation, and stating that Hamas will be forced to stop because their infrastructure will be rendered ineffective. I disagree, because the IRA were fighting in and for a society which, while it had problems, isn't comparable to Gaza in terms of the immense social, economic and public health hardships that they have to endure.

    I'm not sure what post you are referring to, but I ought to clarify, that whilst there are some minor similarities I don't think its comparable to Northern Ireland, the aims and objectives of both parties (and hence the tactics) are totally different and the relationship of the people of Gaza to Israel is not the same as the relationship of the people of Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ah ok then; apologies if I misread that.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So whilst the president of the UN general assembly calls Israel's actions genocide - and Israel promptly calls him an anti-semite, it seems the situation has further escalated. More troops moving into Gaza, more munitions being used, more BIG bombs, more cluster munitions. Oh and a higher death toll, of course.

    Some are panicking that Israel's 'final solution' will be to find an excuse to use it's nuclear arsenal, but even I think that is far fetched. Oh and on the other forum, we are still being 'attacked' by zionist propagandists.

    Here's an amusing comic that I think sums up the idea of disproportionate response quite well though:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I was amazed at the footage I saw recently, where a Hamas militant threw a grenade during an ambush on some IDF guys, one of whom picked up a hamas bloke, and used him as a human shield against the grenade.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MrG wrote: »
    I was amazed at the footage I saw recently, where a Hamas militant threw a grenade during an ambush on some IDF guys, one of whom picked up a hamas bloke, and used him as a human shield against the grenade.

    War's crazy. In situations like that god knows what you'd do. We can all, as normal people, sit here and go how the fuck did he do that etc etc but i guess being there, people wanting to kill you and shooting at you is something we can't understand unless we've experienced it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The thing I worry about (and I'm concious about becoming biased because of the recent invasions of zionists) is the die-hard belief of some Israeli's that it's their land. They don't see Palestinians as neighbours but rather like locusts, unwelcome pests on their lands. They don't think the rest of the world has any business intefering in the conflicted area because it's their back yard.

    I know from watching and reading stuff that in WW2 people lost their humanity, and war crimes were committed which we as a people turned away from in shame. This included the ritual torture and execution of enemy soldiers whether they were Germans, Japanese, American, British or whatever. Look at how the Japanese treated the Chinese, forcing fathers to rape their teenage daughters. War does horrible things to people, especially when there is an indoctrined hatred of 'the enemy' (to this day there is still a massive animosity between the chinese and japanese).

    And from what I've been reading recently, even if it's not all of Israel there is a hardcore of anti-arab sentiment. Much like in America a lot of them aren't too fond of those who are in with Iran's lot. If these soldiers are being allowed to march into Gaza, heavily armed... well what do you expect? It doesn't take a genius to know somewhere there's going to be some soldiers who are going to be taking out their own private war on whatever arabs they can find whether they be soldiers or children.

    Still, if it wins elections, then it's above board. I'm currently watching a documentary on the Israel lobby and it's quite scary *just* how powerful it is in America. It can quite easily win or lose elections for people.

    Also watching webcam in gaza and the shit hit the fan and then the webcam cut out so don't know what's going on down there now.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    The thing I worry about (and I'm concious about becoming biased because of the recent invasions of zionists) is the die-hard belief of some Israeli's that it's their land. They don't see Palestinians as neighbours but rather like locusts, unwelcome pests on their lands. They don't think the rest of the world has any business intefering in the conflicted area because it's their back yard.

    I know from watching and reading stuff that in WW2 people lost their humanity, and war crimes were committed which we as a people turned away from in shame. This included the ritual torture and execution of enemy soldiers whether they were Germans, Japanese, American, British or whatever. Look at how the Japanese treated the Chinese, forcing fathers to rape their teenage daughters. War does horrible things to people, especially when there is an indoctrined hatred of 'the enemy' (to this day there is still a massive animosity between the chinese and japanese).

    And from what I've been reading recently, even if it's not all of Israel there is a hardcore of anti-arab sentiment. Much like in America a lot of them aren't too fond of those who are in with Iran's lot. If these soldiers are being allowed to march into Gaza, heavily armed... well what do you expect? It doesn't take a genius to know somewhere there's going to be some soldiers who are going to be taking out their own private war on whatever arabs they can find whether they be soldiers or children.

    Still, if it wins elections, then it's above board. I'm currently watching a documentary on the Israel lobby and it's quite scary *just* how powerful it is in America. It can quite easily win or lose elections for people.

    Also watching webcam in gaza and the shit hit the fan and then the webcam cut out so don't know what's going on down there now.

    They have war on webcam now do they? Jesus.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    GoodFella wrote: »
    They have war on webcam now do they? Jesus.

    It's not a proper one, its like you know they have in town centres sometimes.

    It's run by some arab website http://www.ramattan.net/e_ramattan.htm
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
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