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I am actually in shock that you are taking it so lightly, almost legitimising this shooting I would say.
These are two Israelis, OUTSIDE Israel - regulars working, shot merely for the fact they were Israeli. There is a reason it has been covered in the world press, such a thing is worrisome as it shows Israelis being targets wherever they are, whatever they do.
To put in terms you might be able to understand, this would have been as if I was shot for my Israeli links whilst going on with my daily life. Would you justify that in the same way?
These are not Mossad agents, this is not MI5/MI6 where it kinda comes with the territory, these are two people removed from the situation at hand, but carrying a certain nationality - therefore targetted!
And frankly, I am yet to hear about two regular Palestinians shot outside the region just because they were Palestinian and people assumed them to be legitimate targets.
Bottomline, this shooting just shows that this is not about whats going on in the region as such, it is about being Israeli and therefore being considered a legitimate target whereever/whenever. But yes, Hamas and their supporters want peace.
Erm, I think I have more than once expressed that the day the Palestinians get their own homeland I will be celebrating with them. Every Israeli I know would agree with this. So do not accuse me of supporting expansionist ideas etc. Just stop putting words in my mouth please.
And again, stop assuming I am brainwashed please. I read a variety of news sources, and frankly I have enough braincells to make my own conclusions, based on my own experiences and knowledge.
If anything, maybe you should question your own views when you try to legitimise shootings of Israeli nationals abroad.
So whilst you are shocked and appalled at Israel's actions, I am shocked and appalled at how Hamas is gaining support in its explicit aim of wiping out Israel.
I am just still clueless at how someone can legitimise terrorist actions which seek out civilians and calls for blood.
And whilst you blame Israel for the violence, the Egyptian Foreign Minister (and excuse me, he is not the first one I would call up as pro-Israel) explains it like I see it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5roptSbO3GQ
Although extreme, people across the world are now asking - what is the difference between the Nazi camps and Gaza. Bear in mind technically, now, considering that Hamas is democratically elected, they have a legitimate right to defend themselves from illegal occuption.
Think how tiny Gaza is. It's three towns. That have been blown to shreds and repeatedly have the power, water, the entire infrastructure removed. They are completely unable to cater for themselves. They are wholly reliant on foreign aid.
Lets not pretend this is anything other than political manouvreing of a party with upcoming elections that needs to appear hardline to the unfortunately significant right-wing in Israel. They are assasinating political targets and their families. These aren't insurgents. These are people who wear a suit, were democratically elected, go to work to try and make policy for the benefit of their peers.
The area has been completely blockaded. Nobody is allowed in or out.
Israel will stop, when there's nobody left alive in gaza.
Shimon Peres: "After all the bloodshed [we have caused in Palestine with our airstrikes], today they fired 70 rockets. Why do they do this? If they want us to stop, they need to stop."
That in black and white is nothing short of collective punishment. "We will keep killing your family, your friends, and your community, until you stop resisting."
For every Israeli person killed, 8 Gazans are killed.
For every Israeli child killed, 12 Gazan children are killed.
IMO, if there is ANY need for regime change in the region, it is not Iran, nor Palestine, nor Syria. It is Israel.
edit: why does Israel not allow journalists into Gaza to film and report what is going on there...?
What I'm saying, is that who is to control the shooter in copenhagen. If a british man was shot dead in Mexico would that be justification for the British army to kill some Irish dudes because 'people don't like British people just cos they're British'.
Yea, I don't know how you legitimise the terrorist actions of Israel either. But there we are.
Are you being deliberately stupid here, or just trying to annoy me?
Israel has not gone into Gaza cause of this shooting (which only happened yesterday). But do you not find it worrisome that the conflict has managed to manifest itself outside the region in such a way, that Israelis are seen as targets wherever they are?
Personally, right now, I am scared shitless. But maybe that is because I am actually at risk, with the way things are - and the way people like you seem to accept them?
Not terrorist, and I will explain it in the simple way of - when Palestinian civilians die, they are casualties and Israel sends out an apology. Now, an apology will not bring back the dead, and it is still tragic - however, it is in my eyes miles better than Israeli civilians being actual targets, and their deaths being celebrated by Hamas and their supporters.
There you go. However, I am sure you will find a way to justify these celebrations as well.
There is a lot of anti Israel sentiment floating around now, you're right. And there's also a lot of anti Islam sentiment. Talk to people who read predominantly US media and they just call all the Gazans a bunch of raving terrorists. That's a side effect of more conflict.
I wasn't trying to justify any death - it did seem you were though. I've said umpteen times I just want the bloodshed to end. But here is the US's own definition of terrorism:
(d) the term “terrorism” means an activity that —
..(i) involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life, property, or infrastructure; and
..(ii) appears to be intended —
....(A) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
....(B) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
....(C) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, kidnapping, or hostage-taking.
I find it hard to argue that Israel does not fall into that definition. Although one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and all that. Hamas is the democratically elected and legitimate government afterall.
Here's what one would hope is a politically unbiased source, only interested in humanitarian affairs: http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/end-unlawful-attacks-and-meet-gazas-emergency-needs-20081229
Bear in mind, that under the 6 month truce agreement, it was only Hamas that met the criteria (to a greater or lesser extent). Bear also in mind, that the missile strikes on Gaza were planned 6 months prior to their execution. Indicating that even when they were signing the truce, Israel had other plans.
Also, by no means am I saying this is authoritative or unbiased, but perhaps worth a perusal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_the_December_2008_Gaza_Strip_airstrikes
Well like any war it's just a stupid cycle of stupid men wanting to prove something and getting lots of people killed then they stop for a bit to train up some more fodder.
Nobody wins.
As Wendy has said Israel gains a lot from it's international trading opportunities so why limit these by alienating half the world through conflicts which are so widely condemned.
Gaza has all it's borders closed off anyway so they don't have to worry about losing their trading partners.
The righteously pissed and oppressed Arabs who were living there before Israel was established by the UN, how did they come into ownership of that land? Did some ancient United Nations give the Ottomans control of it? And the Jews who had a state there before the Arabs gained control of the land, how did they lose that state? Did they consent to losing it?
My point is that both the Jews and Arabs have legitimate claims to it. That is why the UN plan envisaged two states. It was a fair plan, and it was the Arabs who rejected the plan and decided to attack Israel instead. Now Hamas and their sort who still refuse to accept that Israel has a right to exist there are carrying on that long tradition and as long as they continue to do so there will be no peace.
I disagree with you.
Hamas said, they would extend the truce for 10 years if the blockade was lifted. It was not.
Hamas said, they would agree to a permenent peace treaty if Israel stopped military occupation of the land outside it's legally defined pre 1967 borders.
They said in their election manifesto thing that they wanted the land owed to them returned (rather than previously when they had said Israel had no right to exist). Times are changing. Compromise :thumb: although with the political season coming up in Israel that's not going to go down well with voters.
It is one thing running around with ill-judged sentiments. That is bad enough in itself and should be countered in every way possible. But people feeling that this mindset allows them to take up physical, not to mention deadly, action in such a way in a place disattached from the conflict - it is fucking scary. Do I need to watch over my shoulder when going out now? Not to mention the connotationsit brings with it.
But hey, if you feel its normal proceedings then I guess its all alright
Israel took up action to STOP the attacks. Not to aggravate. Action according to international law is justified according to the purpose it seems to serve - and right now, Israel has a very valid case.
Erm, yeah Hamas met the criterias. I am sorry, just seems as if you and I live on completely different planets. Where did they meet the criterias? If anything they were openly acknowledging that they were re-arming! You don't have to read the whole Hamas charter, just read the first few lines of Article 13 in the charter and then come back and tell me they are all that peace-loving.
Whilst you are checking out Amnesty, you might want to see what they have to say about what happens to voices of dissent in the PA and under the reign of Hamas.
That said I dont hold much in favor of Amnesty, seeing that they do not treat all hmanitarian cases equally and function under bias. Thought you might appreciate what they had to say on the matter.
Either way, for now I can only hope that this will end as soon as possible with as few casualties as possible - and with as big of destruction for Hamas as possible.
I really do not believe a full scale invasion is in anyway a proportional response.
As I've said before, I'd have thought a country founded upon the idea of a homeland for the Jewish people after World War II wouldn't treat it's neighbours so badly.
I really, really want to see this one down the middle. I really do, but I just can't get over Israel's reaction, the same when they went into Lebanon in 2006. But because it's Israel nothing will be done.
This would almost be the equivilent of the UK launching a full scale on Ireland during the IRA trouble hey day...
Yeah, Israel treated its neighbours badly by not even being 'proclaimed' and being attacked by 5 armies. Israel is currently behaving badly by being a state attacked by an organization which sole aim is to destroy it. Look at the Hamas charter (have you actually read it?) and look at their actions. Clearly proves that Hamas are peaceful, and Israel is bad. And that is why Israel is treating the Gazan population medically, sending in aid, whilst Egypt wont even touch the Gazans with a bargepole.
Either way, look into how disproportional is defined legally - and this clip from Al-Jazeera
Israel might not be a perfect democracy, however ask a gay person if they would rather live in Israel or under the rule of Hamas?
Likewise, as earlier said Israel has Arab ministers and government officials. Where are the ministers of arabic or asian ethnicity in Britain?
http://www.btselem.org/English/Gaza_Strip/20081231_Gaza_Letter_to_Mazuz.asp
It's a humanitarian disaster going on and imo you can't see that.
You just want hamas destroyed once and for all.
You only need to look at the timeline of events to see how a tense situation evolved and really Israel has been completely unwilling to compromise either on a) withdrawing back to pre 1967 borders or b) opening up Gazan borders for international trade.
You even go onto deflect my comment about what Amnesty have to say, by saying "ooh, look what they say about the humanitarian issues in Gaza - aren't hamas bad?", then go on to say they're biased anyway.
The international red cross, an apolitical organisation, says:
http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/palestine-update-030109?opendocument
You haven't once condemned the actions of Israel that have caused a massive loss of life, and are perfectly happy to continue to justify it by blaming Hamas. Where is the line that is too far and you start questioning the Israeli governments actions? When they're lining up Gazans to be shipped off to gas chambers because they might be associated with hamas? Would you condemn the killing of civilians then?
Al Jazeera puts it best:
Real people are dying. Just try and contemplate that for a moment because I don't think you've connected with it. Each bomb Israel drops kills more. It doesn't save another life. They're bombing infrastructure, wells, power stations, assasinating the government. Is the price in blood worth it?
edit: also I still believe it's a political stunt rather than anything to do with self defence, ive not seen anything to the contrary.
edit2: just how Wendy keeps going on about how we can't trust Hamas because they've gone on record saying Israel doesn't deserve to exist (even if it has since implicitly rescinded that), lets see what Israel has 'historically' said:
"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
"Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen."
"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
All of the above from former Israeli prime ministers. Now, onto Ariel Sharon:
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
952. Makes grim reading.
This is what people find indefensible Wendy, and it's why Israel is losing sympathy around the world. Many arn't so intrested in the history of it alI and who's 'fault' it is nd who started it. People respond to what they see and what people round the world see at the moment is a total disragard for Palestinian civilians and disproportionate response that history tells us will lead absolutely nowhere.
Hmmm... nice.
Like history remembers Germany as the monster of the 20th century, Israel is making good moves to being remembered as the monster of the 21st century.
israel aren't gonna back down because they see it as there one and only homeland...and i can understand why they upset, but palestine needs to be re-built and if that was to happen i really think that middle eastern tension would hugely dissipate. and the only way we are going to get israel to stop is through boycotting their companies, and getting the UK, the EU, the UN to all place sanctions on them. But they won't because the US would spit fire over it. I honestly believe that if the US and israel had less power the world would be a better place. I only way i can see something working is if people boycott on a scale that they did for the aparthied (sp?). Are people prepared to do that these day, or are they as politically apathetic as i said they were last year?
Wendy, i'm guessing you are Jewish, i do wonder why you have these feelings towards israel, because most of my jewish friends feel ashamed to be jewish because of what israel does, even my friends that were born in israel. I do understand some of the basic tenants of most major religions, but i never did understand how the eye for and eye thing fitted in with the rest of the teachings....i'm not saying its a bad religion or making any kind of judgement here, i'd just like you to explain it to me if possible...maybe i would be able to see if from both sides then, because right now i can't at all.
Now as more shock at Israel grows around the world, some groups have taken from not calling for peace, but for violent military intevention. I have hopes that there will not be such an escalation, but that's not to say that Israel aren't playing with fire.
Of course they cannot be held properly to account - they have ignored countless UN sanctions for years and got away scot free with extra funding from the US. But that's not to say that even Israel can't go 'too far' and actually spark off something much greater and more ugly.
Let us all hope for a swift and peaceful resolution to the crisis, and that *maybe* the world leaders will rise to their responsibilities and hold Israel (and Hamas) to account.
Having said that, I believe the world of politics is an ugly place where a human life counts only so far as the amount of votes it can gain.
However, it's because of Israel's concern for Palestinian civilians that they haven't taken the Russian approach. A ground invasion costs Israeli lives and is a risky operation. Remember Chechnya? If Israel did to Gaza, what Russia did to Grozny - the rocket attacks would end and Hamas's authority would be completely crushed. Thankfully Israel is not Russia and Gaza will not become another Grozny - "four years ago the United Nations still called Grozny the most destroyed city on earth."
Now that said, I don't approve of Israel's approach - jets and tanks won't win this, Israel needs to focus on intelligence and special forces; these big displays might scare the Iranians (and prop up big military contracts) but they won't bring peace. Israel's actions have been clumsy and caused unnecessary hardship to innocent people. However, it's clear to just about any observer not blinded by Hamas's propaganda (even many Palestinian and Arab voices) that Israel did not initiate this and that Hamas could have prevented the escalation.
The debacle in the Middle East has gone on long enough. There has to be a lasting solution one day. Israel needs to get out and stay out of the Palestinian territories - and dismantle every last settlement. The Arab states and Iran need to recognise Israel and stop funding terrorism. And the Palestinians need to stop provoking Israel - they need to stop terrorists from attacking Israel, because if they can't - Israel will take that task (and make a bad job of it). Bring on the ceasefire.
Well that's diverting the issue a bit don't you think? If you present yourself as a full functioning democracy then you must act as one. Israel is not acting as a democracy, therefore we must criticise their undemocratic actions.
Arabs make up over 20% of Israel's population, I'd be surprised if they made up half a percent of Britain's.
How did you work that one out? Israel is a democratic nation. The population of Israel is baying for blood, the government has listened to the people and is attacking Gaza.
Unless the people of Israel turned around and started saying no to war and the government ignored them, you can hardly call it undemocratic.
What's undemocratic about their actions? - they seem to have the support of their voters
The whole democracy thing is a red herring
Hmm... generally, I think it's fair to say that the Israeli population are considerably more liberal than Israeli govts. 75% of Israelis support EU membership! However, proportional representation means an ultra-right minority has disproportionate influence... History has probably taught the EU to stay the hell out of the Middle East - but I think a future with Israel, a Palestinian state and Lebanon in the EU would be a way to prosperity and peace for all involved. Unfortunately, there's the small issue of Hamas, Hezbollah and Israeli settlements... but one can always dream.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4zY1UK_NscM&feature=related
scary stuff
top farmer - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rC68EMMN46A&feature=channel