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More Trouble In The Middle East
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
I'm suprised there isn't a topic about this already. I'm entirely aware that the Israeli government feels the need to protect it's people but killing 300 in response to two Israeli deaths seems a bit much and extreme doesn't it?
Let's hope there can be a reasonable peace deal soon.
Let's hope there can be a reasonable peace deal soon.
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Yes. Yes they have. Though you could argue it's been causing a rather large problem for the Palestinians too.
As always, most Western leaders simply call for restrain and refuse to demand an immediate end to the bombings by Israel. Only to the other side... Pathetic.
For as long as we insist on treating Israel differently to Hamas the conflict will perpetuate. High time we stopped pretending they're not as bad as each other and we started treating the former as we do the latter.
I am not for killing in any sense but we can try to maken peace processes but how long do these last?
There is no easy solution. I grew up as a teenager with Israel and Palestine at war with each other and how long has it gone on for?
Then again so did the war in Ireland last for years. I am always sceptical on peace ....yes it would be lovely.
Still our country has its own problems to deal with.
So they just sit back and let them keep flinging rockets over? From what I understand Hamas started doing it as soon as the cease-fire ended and have been chucking hundreds of the things over. A cease-fire ending isn't an invitation to start things up again.
Surely they must have expected some sort of reaction? And chucking rockets at a country that has the military capability of giving pretty much any nation in the middle east a really big problem isn't exactly a genius idea.
Or do you recognise there is such thing as an excessive, disproportionate and unjustified response?
Israel has engaged in a military occupation of the Palestinian territories since 1967, with an increase in military presence since the year 2000.
The people of Palestine continue to live under martial law, with no control of their land, sea or water.
Israeli policies in the Occupied Palestinian Territories appear similar to the apartheid of an earlier era, a continent away.
The United Nations should not be afraid to use the term apartheid to describe what is happening in occupied Palestine.
- President of the United Nations General Assembly, Miguel D'escoto Brockmann
Hamas, however, considers these Palestinian dead as 'martyrs' and therefore, are quite happy to sacrifice their lives.
Israel is using an over-proportionate response BUT Hamas, if it wanted to, could stop this now and attempt some political resolution. Israel as a nation, rightly or wrongly, is not going to go away and so an alternative, political solution MUST be found here. Israel would give up the occupied territories if it knew it could survive in peace. Hamas won't accept this.
Israel is wrong but Hamas are undoubtably the real criminals.
Aladdin, the firing of the rockets deserves more than "complete condemnation" it requires action to stop it. If the French or the Irish (in an alternate universe where they are not the kind lovely people that they are) started shooting rockets at us we would rightly expect our government to act, with force (military force, surprise surprise involves killing and destruction), to stop them from harming us. We would not expect our government to sit back and condemn it. There is nothing "barbaric" or "rogue" about that. It is the fundamental reason any civilised government exists and any civilised government would do the same.
I'll accept that it is an exercise in "revenge" and "retaliation" though I'm not sure why it is you think that "revenge" and "retaliation" are unjustified here. You seem to think that unless somebody uses exactly the same amount of force to defend himself from his attacker he is not justified in defending himself; it no longer counts as "defence". Do you really believe this? So Miss A shoots Mr B because Mr B is trying to rape her. Because Mr B wasn't armed with a gun, Miss A was therefore wrong to defend herself? Miss A's action no longer counts as "defence" in your book? If he runs after her and she runs him over with her car, she was no longer defending herself? It's unfair to have used the car is it?
I await your evidence to prove that the Israelis are being "deliberate in causing significant civilian casualties and widespread suffering". Evidence which proves that this is not the unavoidable effect of them trying to stop rockets being fired into Israel.
If they are treated differently it is because they are different. As far as I can tell it was Palestinian terrorists (admittedly not Hamas) who broke the ceasefire first. But regardless, which is more likely: that Hamas are so stupid that when they began firing rockets into Israel they thought that Israel would not react at all; or that they would react by "playing fair" and firing exactly the same type of rockets back into Gaza, or, on the other hand, that Hamas care so little for the lives of their fellow Palestinian that they attacked Israel knowing that Israel would have no option but to retaliate 'unfairly' and knowing that innocent Palestinians would be hurt? Did they go ahead and fire rockets anyway knowing that condemnation would fall predominantly on the "murdering" "barbaric" Israeli "bastards" as you describe them?
And if you think not, why?
Because the revenge in question is disproportionate, unjustified and largely against innocent civilians.
Nice analogy. Try this other. Family A has most of his land stolen by family B. For the next 40 years there are constant fights and altercations between the two.
Then one day a member of Family A tries to kill someone from family B. As a retaliation, Family B kills 40 members of Family A, rape their women, destroy their property, burn their houses, cut their supplies and terrorises the entire extended family, most of which have never participated in the altercation in the first place.
Justified? Like fucking fuck it is.
Er, have you been watching the news?
Public squares, universities and streets have been bombed. Hundreds of people have died, many, many of them civilians. How is that fighting Hamas, exactly? Do tell...
How do you propose they respond? Another cease-fire? They've tried that, look where it got them.
How about they deliberately sabotage their missiles so they aren't as effective, give the Hamas militants a fighting chance?
How about the terrorists in Palestine instead realise that when they were granted a cease-fire they were onto a good thing, that there was a real possibility peace would emerge from this and there would be an end to the blood-shed.
Instead, they've broken the first rule of international politics/strategy/common sense. They picked a fight with a nation that is pissed off and more than capable of destroying them completely.
You're just upset because Hamas are the under-dogs, and because they've picked a fight with a big bad military machine they somehow deserve to win. Completely, and conviently (sp) forgetting that they started this latest round of fighting, and actually deserve to get the shit kicked out of them.
Hamas, and terrorists in general, being the cowards they are tend to hide their bases of operations amongst civilian populations.
Happy in the knowledge that whatever happens, they'll emerge looking like saints.
This is not the 1940s. Let's be crystal clear about one thing here: Israel has the capability and the means to conduct pinpoint attacks on specific flats, workshops and positions. And indeed, sometimes it does just so with no problem whatsoever.
So when they choose to fire hundreds of fucking missiles targetting even universities and public streets, you know they're going for muder and terror (yes, terror- the very thing Hamas gets accused of).
That is what is unnaceptable.
I guess you didn't see anything wrong with the obliteration of Beirut two years ago either, I suppose...
Nope. That's not it at all. See above.
Now I agree, Israel like the UK and USA is more than capable of launching surgical strikes with the minimum of fuss and problems, except for a few. Those sort of tactics are fantastic against another militarised nation like Iraq that keeps it's troops in bases, keeps it's munitions in supply dumps and it's logistics relies on oil, men and trucks.
It's widely accepted that Hamas doesn't operate like that. Yes it has a few "police" bases, possibly a few camps. It's puts the rest of it's eggs in civilian areas. They are the ones that hide in plain sight. Everyone knows they operate in such a way that they maximise civilian casualties in a way that keeps them safe from harm.
Either their enemy doesn't react because it fears civilian casualties, or it completely destroys the area and anyone unfortunate enough to be there, in such a way that eventually Hamas realise they're doomed and surrender, or everyone who might be in Hamas, and God knows how many innocent people as well are dead.
It's the only way Israel has any chance of defeating them, either destroy them, remove popular support for Hamas so they get kicked out of the civilian areas, or they send in ground forces. it's called strategy, and you might not agree with it, but it's the only one they've got that works.
Hamas gets accused of? That is what Hamas does and keeps them alive! That is what they strive towards, that is their mentality, that is what they feed on. Its no accusation or deliberation. It well and clear is.
Whilst Hamas chant to see the blood of every Israeli spilled on the streets, mothers wish their sons to become martyrs, and 'Farfur' a kids television figure encourages kids to fight the zionists, I don't know any mother in Israel who isn't worried sick about her kid in the army. Every generation hopes that they wont have to send their kids to the army. Israel has accomplished SO much during its 60 years, and its sad to see how much money which could be invested in bright minds and innovative ideas goes towards security.
Also, your little analogy, which story book have you been reading? Stolen land, or land under Israeli control after Israel being attacked?
The situation now is truly terrible, however who is surprised?
These are the sort of reports coming out BEFORE Hamas called an end to the ceasefire (check the date), and then you go and wonder why enough is enough? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7667031.stm
You talk about disproportionate attacks - no, this is about changing the political landscape in such a way that the residents of Southern Israel do not have to live their lives in daily terrors. Sderot is the most rocketed place on earth, yet I haven't seen you condemn that until now.
Likewise, international law is with Israel on this one. As proportionality is meassured towards the end objoective, which is to end agression.
Israel has tried to play it nice. Has tried to give in. Turn the other cheek. But fact is that Israel does not hold accountability towards you Aladdin, they hold accountability towards it citizens, especially the ones in southern Israel. People under daily attacks, kids who spend their time in shelters and suffer from post-traumatic stress from the constant sirens. That is no life, and what sort of government would let its citizens continue to live like that? Do tell me.
The analogy is getting tiresome, and frankly its insensitive both towards the situation and what went on in South Africa.
What happened in South Africa had its base in disgusting race idiologies assuming there to be superior and inferior races. That is not the case here. Israel as a society, with its social flaws just as they exist in England and everywhere else, is an open society representing every sort of race, nationality, ethnicity and religion with same legal rights for all. How can that be compared to apartheid, when what is going on now is connected to legitimate security concerns?
However, if you are going to divest - then remember to check your computer and its internal devices, check your type of mobile phone and remember to check your medication (from trivial stuff like cough medication to progressive and world-recognised cancer treatments) very thoroughly - as big innovations used worldwide and by 90% of consumers of these sort of products have come from Israel.
Just thought I'd help you on your way, if you are going to have a proper go of it
The 1m people who are left without electricity and power due to the deliberate cut outs from Israel have little do with the rockets either.
Collective punishment is an illegal and deplorable tactic that should be confined to the dark pages of history. Yet Israel still uses it liberally at will, with not as much as a whisper of protest from Western leaders. No other nation in the world today would be allowed to use it without at least widespread condemnation, if not outright sanctions and diplomatic isolation. Only NGOs and the UN dares raise the issue- and of course they get deemed 'anti-Israeli' for it.
There is no large-scale military way of destroying Hamas. In fact, the more they pound Gaza relentlessly the more recruits they will win for Hamas. Israel must know this just as much as the rest of the world does.
Unknown to some, conveniently ignored by many others, Hamas has been on record and off it many times stating that they are prepared to sign a full and permanent peace with Israel in return for nothing more than international law and the UN request: a return to 1967's borders and full withdrawal from East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Israel's response? No thanks.
Until Hamas does more to root out the morons who are deliberately undermining the peace process, Israel won't have a choice but to attack them back.
They need to back up their words with a little action.
As I said in the previous post, even Hamas itself (never mind the PLO and moderate Palestinians, never mind Arab nations) have said repeteadly they are prepared to agree to full and permanent peace with Israel in exchange for the return of the occupied land in full. Yet Israel ignores this and continues to attempt to keep large chunks of the West Bank and Jerusalem for ever, while crying foul whenever Palestinians carry out attacks on them.
Why? Why spend so much effort, money and lives on it? Why not do what is right and just, and facilitate peace for the region as a bonus?
Sderot is the most rocketed place on Earth. The number of deaths in the last 7 years have been 8. While I'm not suggesting 8 deaths and the associated distress caused to its citizens is an acceptable tally, try to compare that with the several thousand killed in Gaza over the the same period.
Then think of the blockade, the control over Gaza's airspace and the constant restrictions of fuel and electricity that have turned Gaza into an unimaginable hellhole where living conditions are worse than almost anywhere else. 1.5m people living in appalling conditions in what effectively is the world's largest concentration camp.
That is nothing short of a Crime Against Humanity. You might think such consequences are an adequate and justified response to a town being fired on causing less than 10 deaths in seven years, but I certainly do not. In fact, nothing on Earth could justify it.
But then again it has never been my intention to defend Hamas or any other groups attacking civilians. It has only been that Israel is treated as it deserves by the West, rather than as an innocent victim guilty of no wrongdoing that is "defending itself" and which actions are quite not as bad as those of its adversaries. For as long as we continue this attitude and shameful double standards, the situation will continue as is.
But not once, not a single time in 41 years it has even contemplated the idea of withdrawing from Occupied Palestine in full. Not once.
Excuse me but what exactly can the Palestinians be expected to do? The best offer that has ever been on the table has been "will stop bombing you". Some deal, that. What about the land that was taken from them? Can they have it back or not?
Perhaps Israel could try offering that for a change. Only after all violence has ended and all parties concerned agree to fully recognise Israel and to permanent peace, if they must. But offer it to them at least.
They may only be killing single figure numbers of civilians with their rockets, but it isn't for want of trying. If they could lay their hands on some real firepower there is no doubt in my mind they'd use it. The intention is there, they just don't have the capability.
This was just after the collapse of the cease-fire, but during the cease-fire there were (only?!) 2 rockets a day going over...
That said, if children in Gaza are being taught that death to Israel is the only way for peace to come to the Middle East, what is this latest effort going to do except drive more people to extremists like Hamas?
No, because I don't think it is necessary to kill every single Palestinian in Gaza to stop them firing rockets. I'm sure there are less bloody means of using force to achieve the same ends.
It's not really "revenge" if they are trying to stop rockets being fired into Israel. They are not unjustified in trying to stop rockets being fired into their towns. The terrorists have hidden themselves among civilians. I'm not a commander so I can't say, but exactly what amount of force do you think the Israelis should be using to stop rockets being fired? If they don't know exactly where the rockets are fired from what are they supposed to do? Nothing?
Members of family A haven't actually stopped trying to kill members of family B yet. Under those circumstances members of family B are absolutely justified in trying to stop members of Family A from killing them.
You write as if you know exactly where Hamas and co are operating from, and as if the areas they're operating from are no where near buildings used by civilians. The fact that civilians have been killed is not evidence that the Israelis are intentionally trying to kill as many civilians as they can out of "revenge".
It would be more straightforward if the terrorists left Gaza and created their own little village somewhere and fired rockets from there but unfortunately that's not the case.
But Islamic Jihad violated the truce not long after it was made:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/06/24/gaza.truce/index.html
Aren't those two statements contradicting each other? In the first one you acknowledge that there is such thing as excessive force. In the second you are justifying Israel bombing public places. There were no terrorists hiding in the University, or at the coronation of Palestinian police cadets where scores of kids were killed in cold blood (unless Israel can prove otherwise of course- it always seems the world takes their word as all proof that's needed).
Given that Israel has fired probably hundreds of missiles, dozens of them simultaneously at countless different locations, the concept that they were all targeting Hamas is as improbable as absurd. Some of them targeted Hamas. Many others were simply designed to terrorise the general population and teach them a lesson.
I shouldn't think this should be difficult to believe, seeing as Israel is very much on record as having carried out countless instances of collective punishment by cutting off vital supplies to the city for weeks on end and living hundreds of thousands without power or water. They're quite happy to castigate the entire population.
. Members of family A have stopped at various stages, but not once tried family B to contemplate giving them their property back.
It would be even more straightforward if Israel removed the air and land blockade of Gaza, dismantled all its illegal settlements and checkpoints from the West Bank, demolished the Apartheid Wall and withdrew to 1967 borders, as it should.
It wasn't me who made the comments, it was the UN guy.
Stop defending Israel because it is a murderous regime.
The only reason nothing has been done is because they're in bed with the US. They've violated 66 UN security resolutions, been criticised by human rights organisations and governments the world over, but carry on.
Iraq breached one and got the shit blown out of it. Figures.
As for the whole "90% of your shit was invented in Israel so give it back" - the reality is that these MNCs are spread over several countries with R&D in different countries. If the political situation becomes untenable in Israel do you think they're going to want to be piling money in?
I'm not calling for a one state solution, but seriously reading your posts you would think Israel are innocent in all of this. They're the one with the guns, the airplanes, the cluster bombs, the merkhavas, the conscription, the nukes. It's like saying WW2 / WW1 was all Germany's fault.
Bear in mind Hamas came into existence as a reaction to Israel's military and intelligence / police activities (and, according to some link, was supported by parts of Israel as created a divided and weaker palestine). This is the same Israel that sends assasins around the world killing people it doesn't like.
Scarier than the scientologists.
I do find it sad that a nation based on the idea of a people that rightly deserved their own homeland after thousands of years of being persecuted seems to discriminate against its own neighbours rather often.
You could go further back and blame the whole thing on the Balfour declaration in which he arguably said that both the Jewish people and the Palestinians would get their own homelands...
But the family analogy is flawed (on both sides) because it sees things as happening in a logical order, when in reality they don't. Both sides are putting in blow and counter-blow at the same time - Israel won't pull out whilst its under attack and the Palestinians won't stop attacking whilst Israel is still there.
Actually that's why things like the UN resolutions are not only useless, but counter-productive. if you want peace you need confidence building measures for both sides - not saying that the Israeli's are the baddies as a proxy attack on the US. Israel has legitimate concerns and these need to be recognised at the same time as the legitimate concerns of the Palestinians (and other Arabs as well).