innocent but dead.

Former Member

stargalaxy wrote:

I hope the police are sued and we can see just what incompetence led to this pointless death.

you really think the police need to be sued for us to see that?

Former Member

MrG wrote:

you really think the police need to be sued for us to see that?

Not really, it would just make it even clearer to those who say they did the right thing that they cocked up.

Former Member

morrocan roll wrote:

so they were totaly wrong in their information and in their behaviour but you understand why they publicly slaughtered an innocent man?
you next ...will your family be so understanding?
it's not supposed to be like this so i'lll ask here what i asked in p&d ...who's winning ...us or the terrorists?
from where i'm standing it certainly doesn't look like us ...

It was wrong because it was murder, but the reason behind it wasn't. I'm not saying that makes it ok, I'm saying that had it been a situation in which it were a bomber the right choice would have been made and no one would be questioning the judgement, it was a risk that they took and I think it was right to take it.

Why bring my family into it? I don't see why it's difficult to understand that in that situation it would be the greater good and in my opinion not worth the risk. I think my family would understand that.

I can see what you're saying about the terrorists causing people to panic, and that terrorism is going to happen whether we worry about it or not, but if it can be prevented it should.

ETA: I feel like people are trying to turn me into a P&D person...I'm no good at it Putting my point across scares me in case it comes out wrong and the meaning is mispercieved. I don't believe I can get my point across as acurately as I'd like to.

Former Member

chaos_insomniac wrote:

Why bring my family into it? I don't see why it's difficult to understand that in that situation it would be the greater good and in my opinion not worth the risk. I think my family would understand that.

I can see what you're saying about the terrorists causing people to panic, and that terrorism is going to happen whether we worry about it or not, but if it can be prevented it should.

By shooting people who had nothing to do with the incident?!

Former Member

stargalaxy wrote:

By shooting people who had nothing to do with the incident?!

When did I say that?

Skive

morrocan roll wrote:

[IMG][/IMG]if i remember rightly they knew each individual involved.

But it later transpired that none of the individuals were armed or had a detonator. It's not too different.

Kermit wrote:

Well that's one monkey for the organ grinder converted.

Based on the fatc I think the police were justified in this instance?
What a stupid remark!

Former Member

stargalaxy wrote:

By shooting people who had nothing to do with the incident?!

what he said was, that if the guy had been a bomber and the police hadnt taken the risk, then there would also be outrage

the police i do not defend, but neither do i defend the people who want to have the cake and eat it

Former Member

MrG wrote:

what he said was, that if the guy had been a bomber and the police hadnt taken the risk, then there would also be outrage. the police i do not defend, but neither do i defend the people who want to have the cake and eat it

What?! I'm in agreement with Kermit over this - if they're gonna shoot people dead, they have to be absolutely certain they get it right. Suspicions aren't enough.

Former Member

chaos_insomniac wrote:

the reason behind it wasn't. had it been a situation in which it were a bomber the right choice would have been made
I don't see why it's difficult to understand that in that situation it would be the greater good
but if it can be prevented it should.

it seems we are being protected by fucking bozos ...they can't prevent it as has been shown but they can go round killing the wrong people ...us.

the reason behind it wasn't though.
had it been a bomber ...but it wasn't.
if it had been such and such a situation ...but it wasn;t.
why do i bring your family into it?
well ...i pressume all families are now expected to loose innocent members ...for the greater good ...sounds like suicide bomber mentality to me ...

Former Member

Skive wrote:

But it later transpired that none of the individuals were armed or had a detonator. It's not too different.




!

it's very different!
these guys were known IRA terrorists ...

Former Member

morrocan roll wrote:

it seems we are being protected by fucking bozos ...they can't prevent it as has been shown but they can go round killing the wrong people ...us.

Exactly. We're in a democracy, (debatable, I know) if the police cock up, they should be investigated and officers who made the decision to kill should be punished for their mistake.

why do i bring your family into it? well ...i presume all families are now expected to loose innocent members ...for the greater good ...sounds like suicide bomber mentality to me ...

I've read an article about the mentality and thoughts of suicide bombers recently and this is almost word for word what one of them said. :nervous:

Former Member

morrocan roll wrote:

it seems we are being protected by fucking bozos ...they can't prevent it as has been shown but they can go round killing the wrong people ...us.

the reason behind it wasn't though.
had it been a bomber ...but it wasn't.
if it had been such and such a situation ...but it wasn;t.
why do i bring your family into it?
well ...i pressume all families are now expected to loose innocent members ...for the greater good ...sounds like suicide bomber mentality to me ...

But if it was no one would blink twice. They'd get a pat on the back and be told "good job". They're doing they're job and they're making the choices they believe to be right. If it was a bomber situation you wouldn't be saying "What if it wasn't?" would you? Would you even think twice?

Comparing my mentality to that of a suicide bomber is ridiculous, when I said for the greater good I simply meant the risk can be worth it, granted they were wrong this time, and they killed an innocent, but I'd rather that than see more terrorist bombings on the news had it been. I feel this is becoming a circular arguement....

Former Member

very recently people were screaming for justice by way of having the directors of rail track locked up for neglect which caused deaths.
if anyone causes the death of innocent people through incompetence then surely they should be made to face justice?
...and FIVE bullets ...at extremely close range ...come on.

Former Member

stargalaxy wrote:

I've read an article about the mentality and thoughts of suicide bombers recently and this is almost word for word what one of them said. :nervous:

So I'm going to go around killing people now am I? They're minds are clouded by the bullshit they're fed and what they're made to believe, they're made to believe that what they're doing is worth something. What I'm saying is....I don't even know what I'm saying anymore, I'm probably going off on one, or contradicting myself...I'm too tired.

I still think what they did was right though.

Former Member

chaos_insomniac wrote:

But if it was no one would blink twice. They'd get a pat on the back and be told "good job". They're doing they're job and they're making the choices they believe to be right. If it was a bomber situation you wouldn't be saying "What if it wasn't?" would you? Would you even think twice?

You're dealing with a hypothetical scenario. What if they HAD been a suicide bomber? But that's not what happened. If it was a bomber, yes, shoot the bastard dead. But in this case, it wasn't.

This slightly reminds me of the situation that soldiers have to deal with out in Iraq dealing with the insurgency and suicide bombers there, for some reason.

Former Member

morrocan roll wrote:

very recently people were screaming for justice by way of having the directors of rail track locked up for neglect which caused deaths.
if anyone causes the death of innocent people through incompetence then surely they should be made to face justice?
...and FIVE bullets ...at extremely close range ...come on.

Five bullets I agree is extreme. Given the situation they should have disarmed the man, not killed him, but shooting him was a risk they were prepared to take, which I think was the right decision.

Former Member

chaos_insomniac wrote:

If you suspected that someone could have a bomb and could potentially kill tens if not hundreds of innocent people, would you shoot them?

I don't know about that, but I certaily wouldn't let them get into a Tube station in the fisrt place.

BTW I though no-one like Politics over in this forum?

Former Member

stargalaxy wrote:

You're dealing with a hypothetical scenario. What if they HAD been a suicide bomber? But that's not what happened. If it was a bomber, yes, shoot the bastard dead. But in this case, it wasn't.

This slightly reminds me of the situation that soldiers have to deal with out in Iraq dealing with the insurgency and suicide bombers there, for some reason.

It may be hypothetical, but if it were the other way round you wouldn't care, do you not see that? It doesn't matter that the scenario is hypothetical, in this situation it could easily have been either, given that there are terrorists in the UK plotting things as we go about our lives.

Former Member

Man Of Kent wrote:

I don't know about that, but I certaily wouldn't let them get into a Tube station in the fisrt place.

Which raises another question. Why did the police let him go around the streets of London? Why wasn't he arrested days ago, for instance?

Former Member

Man Of Kent wrote:

I don't know about that, but I certaily wouldn't let them get into a Tube station in the fisrt place.

BTW I though no-one like Politics over in this forum?

I'm bored. And everytime I try my luck at debating I get shot down or my wings clipped (so to speak), which is why I rarely bother.

Former Member

stargalaxy wrote:

Which raises another question. Why did the police let him go around the streets of London? Why wasn't he arrested days ago, for instance?

Maybe they were looking for him?

Former Member

chaos_insomniac wrote:

I'm bored. And everytime I try my luck at debating I get shot down or my wings clipped (so to speak), which is why I rarely bother.

At least you're standing up for what you believe. Many feel the police were wrong, you feel they were right. You've every right to say that.

Former Member

stargalaxy wrote:

At least you're standing up for what you believe. Many feel the police were wrong, you feel they were right. You've every right to say that.

And say that I do. I just don't like how I always get talked into how somehow my opinion is wrong.

Former Member

chaos_insomniac wrote:

I'm bored. And everytime I try my luck at debating I get shot down or my wings clipped (so to speak), which is why I rarely bother.

I thought that you were doing well, consdiering that you are arguing with people who do it for fun. Keep it up...

Former Member

chaos_insomniac wrote:

And say that I do. I just don't like how I always get talked into how somehow my opinion is wrong.

It happens all the time in P&D. When it comes to contentious issues like this, tempers are bound to flare.

Former Member

I'm not tempered at all though. I can see the point they're making, it's a differing of opinion that's all. What it all boils down to is opinion, and seemingly trying to change each others standing point. It's interesting, hearing other peoples opinions, but it does feel somewhat forced upon each other much of the time, or maybe it's just me.

Skive

morrocan roll wrote:

it's very different!
these guys were known IRA terrorists ...

It's not so very different.

They were thought to be planning a bomb attack, the bloke yesterday was thought to be connected to the london bombers.
In both cases neither were armed or carrying detonators.

Former Member

chaos_insomniac wrote:

I'm not tempered at all though. I can see the point they're making, it's a differing of opinion that's all. What it all boils down to is opinion, and seemingly trying to change each others standing point. It's interesting, hearing other peoples opinions, but it does feel somewhat forced upon each other much of the time, or maybe it's just me.

You're not alone in feeling that. I often feel when it comes to P&D and threads such as this that some posters are incredibly forceful with their views. It is perhaps one reason why so many are put off from going into that section of the boards.

Former Member

Skive wrote:

It's not so very different.

They were thought to be planning a bomb attack, the bloke yesterday was thought to be connected to the london bombers.

Can't you see the difference between the words "known" and "thought"?

Former Member

chaos_insomniac wrote:

They're minds are clouded by the bullshit they're fed and what they're made to believe, they're made to believe that what they're doing is worth something.
I still think what they did was right though.

scary scary stuff!