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If you believe it is a mental health problem then you advocate decriminalization and increase in treatment. If you believe it is purely choice and physical addiction, you advocate criminalization of addicts.
Very black and white, just a thought.
It's easy to think that because you and your friends find no issue with drugs that the public feel the same way, it's not so
The government doesnt help the situation with its terrible drugs education policies. And of course the headline;
"Man took MDMA and had a good time with little harm"
Doesnt sell many papers does it.
Its a 2 to 1 ratio, every pound on treatment saves two on crime.
So surely if you really hate drug users you would want to spend as little on them as possible, treatment would be the best option for this.
If a drug addict is carrying the amount needed for "personal use" then it is very rare that charges are brought, if that is the only crime- source, defence solicitors I know. That is helpful- there is no point in jailing people because they are addicted, and the law generally understands this.
Treatment is also available- not enough money is spent on it, IMHO, but the treatment is available. Those seeking treatment are generally not prosecuted or punished, but those who REFUSE treatment are- and that is how the law should stand. If addicts are not going to reform, or even try, then if they rob or burgle they should have the book thrown at them.
Legalising the products would not remove the addiction aspect. Yes, it may guarantee better quality produce, but I feel that that would remove one of the psychological barriers to people taking harmful drugs- if E could be guaranteed, more people would take it, causing more damage.
The idea of doctors prescribing it is desirable, in theory, but a question of mine from earlier remains- how would it work? If the doctor prescribed it to anyone who asks for it then the cost would go through the roof, and it would have to be funded by the taxpayer; otherwise it would still only be available to those who could afford it, and the crime issue would remain. If the doctor didn't prescribe it to everyone then the black market would remain for those who couldn't get it from the doctor- so there would be no difference to now.
The law is basically correct- help the addicts and throw the book at the dealers. The law is correct, and although it is very difficult to enforce any of the alternatives proposed here are much more unworkable, both legally and in practice.
Heroin could be given on prescription, diamophine is dirt cheap to make so it wouldnt cost the NHS much, and obviously a lot of users would pay the £6.30 per prescription. And if you kept the amount prescibed in each go small then not only would it be more income but also you could regulate it better.
I dont think your point about MDMA works either, surely it would be better for a few more people to use PURE product than all the people already using to use crap 'street' supplies. It is the fact that pills are unregulated that is one of their key dangers.
It doesnt make much sense 'help the addicts and throw the book at the dealers', because surely it would be better to help the addicts and remove the dealers altogether. The black market creates addicts because low level dealers try and find customers, it also creates a massive amount of violence, and it fund terrorism and mass murder over seas.
you don't need a shrink when your addicted to nicotine. nicotine being a far deadlier addiction than heroin. a much more difficult addiction to break as well. but ...saying that, i'm a nicotine addict. i chose to smoke but for the life of me i cannot see what i get out of it ...every other drug gives an obvious effect ...what the hell does this crasp nicotine do for me? all nicotine addicts must be mad ...i need a shrink!
black and white ...not on your nelly.
That a much better way of putting it mr roll, a medical approach rather than a criminal approach. And I meant that my statement was b&w and a bit simplistic, not the issue!!!!
Generally if people want to take something they will regardless of the laws on that substance - drugs have been around for thusands of years and they're not going to go away. Surely seeing as though people take it anyway we should concentrate on harm reduction - reducing the harm drugs cause to both the user and society.
Drug prevention is what we have at the moment and it doesn't work. We still have people taking drugs and many don't realise how to do so as safely as they can. We have so many dangerous myths and scare stories created by the government and media that they hold no credibility amongst users - which is the main problem.
Many think the harm reduction aproach will encourage people to use drugs. I don't think it will. Harm reduction is all about education and being realistic, it's about putting things in perspective. This means dumping the blunt 'all drugs are evil' aproach and let people be discouraged by the real dangers . Let peope make their own choices based on real facts - and if they do decide to use drugs (which some inevitably will) let them know how to do it safely.
The money for these drugs at the monent goes straight to organised crime and terrorists.
Many crack and heroin addicts find the only way to pay for their habit is to steal and rob.
People don't know how to use drugs safely and the quality of drugs is often so bad that people accidently OD or don't know waht they're actually taking
Diseases like Hepatitis and AIDS are spread though the use of dirty needles.
These laws are making criminals out of ordinary, hard working, tax paying otherwise law abiding citizens - and at the same time punishing addicts for having an addiction.
But surely the reverse argument applies here- these people know that drugs are illegal, and so if they choose to ignore that law, which is there for their own protection as much as anything, then that is, basically, their own tough shit.
I've said before- just because people choose to ignore the law doesn't mean that the law should be scrapped.
The law, in essence, aims to remove the dealers- just because the dealers manage to evade this law does NOT mean that the law should be abandoned. I've said before, people drink-drive, people speed, people murder- those laws could be argued to not work, just like the drugs one can be. Does that mean that murder should become allowed, or drink-driving, or the sexuyal abuse of children? You may not think that drugs are in the same category, but DEALING them is- it harsm society, it breeds anger and violence, it is dangerous, they have no regard for human life.
Personally I think that, much as I respect the arguments of liberty and protection, people should be made to be more responsible for their actions. Help should be available to help those who are addicted, and possession for personal use should remain a caution at worst, but to legalise it simply because people wilfully choose to ignore and flaut the law is a complete non-argument. And the arguments supporting the legalisation of drugs seems to boil down to that.
Sorry, but he's not engaging with the debate. All he is doing is repeating the same thing over and over again without answering anyone else's points. I have posted links to information which he has ignored. Is it any surprise that I think he is talking shit when he won't engage?
I have posted lots of information from Drugscope. If WW wants to ignore it and be ignorant thats up to him. But I don't see him doing his job effetively from a position of ignorance...
Thats because the public are misinformed.
The medical approach is also a bit simplistic IMO. Its an interplay between biology, psychology and social forces.
maybe they're the wrong sort of public .
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3460485.stm
Thing is, there is so much misinformation, propaganda and downright lies spread about drugs in the media, that the general public are not in the position to make informed decisions. Educate yourself and then we can continue this debate...
the reason we need to abandon the way we are dealing with the drug problem is that leaving it to villains means we are not dealing with the problem at all. the problem gets bigger year on year ...so how are we dealing with it?
no other 'drime' ...is threatening the very fabric of society in the way that drugs worth billions of pounds is doing so. the guns, the violence, the murders ...
can we draw a line under this endless endless and pointless argument by ...you lot who think society taking control of the situation by legalisation as being wrong ...actualy offering what you think could or would be a solution to this very serious problem.
the war on drugs isn't being lost ...it's been lost. it is now very dangerously out of control and will spiral into total anarchy unless WE ACTUALY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!
so please ...once again i'm asking ...WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
Legalise them all and freely on sale for everyone who wants to try drugs.
But these laws don't work. I just don't see the point in making criminals out of people who otherwise wouldn't cause any problem at all. The money may end up in the hands of criminals but that would change with legalisation.
Would you stop drinking alcohol if they made it illegal simply because of the amount of violent crimes commited by pissed up people or the amount of drink drivers. Why should your freedoms be suffer because of the irresponsible actions of others.
It should be scapped when enough of the population understand the benifits of legalisation. Even though you may not be in favour surely you can see that the laws as they stand are useless?
If the law really aimed to remove the dealers they would legalise the drugs. As I've said before the law isn't working and will never work with the way it is now.
Taking drugs shouldn't be a crime just the same as drinking shouldn't be . If however, you commit a crime whilst on drugs or while drunk (such as drink driving) then you should be punished.
I think you'll find that most of the people who are pro legalisation are also the ones that want heavy punishments for those who still commit drug related crime (such as drug driving or stealing). If you legalise drugs and give addicts what they need on prescription you give them no excuse to break the law.
As we've said again and again. You won't stop the money from drugs going to organised crime until you legalise them. Keep them illegal and you only server to keep them in the criminals hands. The violence you talk of is very rarely commited by people on these drugs - more by the people who deal them.
No the main arguments most of us have put forward is that legalisation would benifit everyone (users, non-users and society) by taking the drugs off of the black market - it's an argument that's been repeated again and again in this thread. No ones yet answered it. How would YOU propose we stop drug money funding organised crime and terrorists Kermit? Keep things as they are?
someone is trying to open a cannabis cafe in rhyl ...on jis patch. he's all for it but the councilors of the town want his head on a plate!
the chief constables association is mostly like minded as well ...they are the guys who know what is happening at street level and want things changed.
recently the biggest cocain bust in history was celebrated by the customs who predicted the price of coke would rocket because so much had been taken out of the system and a major organisation had been smashed. within 48 hours organised crime dropped the price and flooded the streets with more! just to make a statement.
there are wharehouses, ships ...containers ...full of every drug imaginable. how do you propose to stop this flood?
do you grasp how many people are involved ...how much is being grown and manufactured?
HOW ...please tell me how your going to stop this.
When I think about it now if they had specialist places where you could buy it then its going to get rid of a few dealers. People who use drugs would be able to buy the stuff knowing its ok gear.
But I suppose it would boil down to how much it would cost. If it costs £20 in the shop and £10 off your dealer we would just have the same problem we have with smokers, I dont buy from the shop because i can get them cheaper from a mate
has everyone forgotten that this was how it used to be done in the 60's? very few if any problems. very little imported stuff. no crime. then they decided to stop prescribing ...and like a whirlwind it poured in from all over the world cos there was money to be made.
Over the last year they asked suspects if they wanted to be tested, over 90% agreed to it, when they were assured they wuldn't be prosecuted for it, and they weren't. Thats how I know about how many criminals have drugs in their system.
As for crime shifting elsewhere, I'm not talking about the end user I'm talking about the dealers. If you take away a lucrative trade away from them, they will go searching for another and simply shift the crime away from drugs.
We're not talking about people who would think "shit, there goes my livelihood, better go and find a real job".
heroin addicts are already prescribed methadone, which doesn't work. Legalising heroin won't work because:
1.It doesn't take into account most people have little or no willpower.
2.It doesn't take into account that maybe they were forced onto the drug (prostitutes)
3.Doesn't take into account peer pressure (go on mate, don't stop just because the pigs told you to).
I'm sure Blagsta will agree with me on this one, as soon as one of your addicts has left chances are he will get back on the drug again. it certainly happens with prison.
As for the adding to the problems with alcohol, we will. Why? There are few similar problems now because compared to alcohol drugs are difficult and expensive to get hold of. (i know they are quite easy, but relatively speaking).There is also the legality factor, many people don't take drugs because of their jobs, or because they have families. How many of those people will change their minds and start taking drugs if they were legalised? Where, may I ask is the morality in legalising another dangerous narcotic substance?
A lot of people I've spoken to, and I'm sure you will agree that if alcohol or tobacco had been discovered recently they would have never been legalised. Why should heroin or cocaine or speed be any different?
I would say most illegal drugs are now cheaper than going out drinking for the night.
Pills are a pound each.
Cocaine is 30-40 pounds a gram
Amphetamine is 10 a gram
Cannabis is 15-20 an 1/8th.
And suggesting that users should only get a caution, I will state again that this means a criminal record, you will not be able to get some jobs, you will not be able to get some visas to visit other countries. All for smoking one joint, sound fair?!
The reason people who leave prison go back on drugs is because there isnt anything for them. They are given no-where near enough help to stay off and get a job.
From BehaveNet
medical model
In behavioral health care the concept of addictive or other mental disorder as an illness analogous to a physical illness with the implication that it may be most appropriately addressed by treatment (as opposed to, for example, punishment) and that it does not arise from a moral defect.
Debate is more than forcing your opinion on others and then telling them they are stupid because they disagree. As far as I can see you are doing what you are accusing other people of doing. And that is fine, I would just prefer you weren't quite so aggressive about it.
I'm only getting arse because he refuses to answer any points put to him. Read through the thread.
Again, showing how little you know about it. Most small time dealers are selling to support a habit themselves. Legalise and they wouldn't need to. Other small time dealers to it to sort friends, parties and themselves out. Legalise and most of these people wouold be more than happy to buy at legal vendors.
The big time dealers are already involved in other crime such as protecton rackets, prostitution etc so it wouldn't make any difference.