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My suggestion is that Israel allows and helps the Palestinians to form a viable state, they can then work together to prevent the extremists, Israel must make the first move because they have the structure to be able to do so....
As it seems now, with militant groups openly announcing that they want to see the death of Israel, they can't give them the same offers as before... It is sad that this has to go on, but Israel can't trust someone who has already slapped them hard in the face, and stands ready to stab their back, as soon as they turn away...
I dont think that Israel would hesitate helping them, when they saw that the claim for peace was meant for real.
israel cant allow itself to let close to a milion refugees to israel, it will kill israel socially and economically, for the reason any other countries cant let in a number of immegrants that are 1/6 of their population.
its funny how you confuse history stealgate.
Palastine was the name the romans gave israel (then judea) more than 2000 years ago when they conqured the region, back than, there was no such thing as islam yet, and you know what, not even christianity, only judaism and other pagan religons.
the name was kept along the centuries and the europeans controlled the area in their crusades in around year 1000-1100 and the turks controlled the area for 700 years until world war 1 when britian occupied the area. so how can you claim to a "palastinian territory" when there was never such a thing, its true that there were more arabs than jews a 80-100 years ago, but it doesnt say that the arabs in israel had their own country...
if you knew alittle about histroy stealgate rather than just to made things up in your twisted way of thinking you would know that israel had much less, but much less weapons than the arabs in 48' only rifles, very few cannons and 2 piper airplanes that couldnt do much. and the arabs were previously equipped by some british weaponery and got weapons delivered from all over the arab countries.
israel has bulit up her army better only in the next decade when they got some weapons shipped from europe and the usa.
btw, did u hear about the black october on 70' ?
[ 30-04-2002: Message edited by: DPsy ]
Ive thought of a parallel to my idea of non-violence from the Palestinians...India and Gandhi.
Would India have been able to get rid of the Brits if the Indians were running round blowing up women and kids? No, the Brits would have crushed it immediately...They didnt do that, and achieved a great victory through non violence against a vastly superior nation.
If the world saw Palestinians sitting down in front of tanks and not using terrorist tactics then they would pressure Israel into acting, just as they pressured the Brits RE India. COnsider the media coverage we have now compared to back then.
Leaders of the quality of Ghandi are rare and the Palestinians are not united, there are large groups of extremists and the Palestinian authorities do not have the ability to remove them......
Also the main sorepoint for the Palestinians is the illegal settlements which were never a feature of British rule in India...
that all the refugees that live in syria,lebanon and jordan for the last 50 years will go live in israel? there is no chance for that to happen.
Barak agreed to divide Jerusalem, and to give the palastinians about 95% of the land + exchanging the remaining 5% in other lands near Gaza.
Arafat did not agree to that because it was out of the question for him not to get 100% of what he wanted.
theres a big difference from what you hear him say on interviews on cnn and from what he says to his people in arabic ("2 million martyrs are marching towards jerusalem")
not mentioning the documents found in his quaters relating him directly to terror attacks.
Another parallel is that of the Mau Mau in Kenya. They were extraordinarily violent, but are generally accepted to have played a part in securing majority rule for blacks. Without them, Kenya would have faced continued white minority rule from the "White Highlands" and probably would have suffered an apartheid regime.
I agree wholeheartedly that peaceful protest would be infinitely better. It annoys me when people blame Arafat for not adopting such a policy; he is literally unable to as Palestinian opinion would immediately turn against him and he'd be overthrown. Then the Israelis would have real problems.
Palestinian violence will not cease until Israeli violence also ceases.
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Excellent article by Archbishop Desmond Tutu, a man who knows what it is like to be in the position of the Palestinians: <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4403427,00.html">Apartheid in the Holy Land</a>
Found by whom, exactly?
and Israeli violence will not cease until Palestinian violence also ceases...Back to that nasty vicious circle again.
I know nothing about the history of Kenya im afraid so I cant comment atm.
Are you implying that Israel planted the stuff on Arafat? Dont forget Arafats roots...
Why did President Bush condemn Arafat so sharply a day or two after the founds?
This should come as no big shock to the world, that he is involved in the economical backing of militant groups.
the Al Aqsa Brigades that took responsibility for many terror attacks on israel belongs to the fatah movment and the fatah movment belongs to yasser arafat.
Arafat was paying the costs of their bombs.
do the european goverments that send arafat money know where their money goes to?
Shock, horror <IMG SRC="eek.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> Surely he isn't suggesting that Israel would forge documents in order to justify their action, not with them acting above board in the way that they do...
<STRONG>
Possibly to help reduce the backlash from the Jewish lobby within his country who were outraged at previous comments.
<STRONG>
I have no doubt that Arafat is involved, as you say he headed up the PLO FFS. But lets not paint the Israeli Govt as being whiter-than-white, not pretent that the US is in any was impartial.
~~~
In summary of the previous posts I think there are one or two conclusions that can be drawn.
1. Israel is an occupying power in the West Bank and Gaza.
2. Palestine suicide bombers are evil fuckers.
3. Israel Govt have acted in a heavy handed way.
4. There should be a State of Palestine
5. Israel should be allowed to defend its territory
6. Arafat is a terrorist, but then so were many of Israels forefathers.
~~~~
The real irony of this situation is that a country founded through terrorism finds itself claiming to be anti-terrorist.
I would also like to add that
Israel policy is to allow Jews into their country, their is mass immigration into Israel so don't say that they are overcrowded or that there is no room for the palestinians
Do you have any figures for the number of Jewish immigrants in recent years?
I doubt the UK would be able to handle a million immigrants at one time, let alone Israel which is hell of a lot smaller.
Israel did have some bombs before 1948 to help their situation. But it can by no means be compared to the Palestinian suicide bombs. Stealgate is reffering to a bomb in the King David Hotel, killing 9 people. This did take place, but the victims where not what they were aiming for. It is also said that they actually twice warned about the attck, so they could get people out.
I am not justifying the attack at all! But I am saying that it was made under much more human conditions, than aiming directly for civilians, and tributing (sp?) the people doing it afterwards.
That is not why they can't give the Palestinians what they claim for. It is as said a zillion times before, cause it would be a suicidal move for Israel, to give them that at the moment.
Im pro-Israel but im not gonna excuse the Jewish terrorism of the '40s. You cannot possibly oppose Hamas and Islamic Jihad with any credibility if you seek to justify the terrorism in Israels past.
Is there a human (do you mean humane?) situation in which a terrorist can kill 91 people? I think not.
And the Israelis did pay tribute to the bombers.
The hypocrisy of the Israelis is reaching endemic proportions.
[ 01-05-2002: Message edited by: Vox populi, vox Dei ]
91 people were killed and a further 58 wounded in the King David hotel bombing. The dead included some British soldiers(legit targets), their families, clerical staff and hotel staff..15 Jewish secretaries were killed in the bombing as well.
]
how can a palatinian state rise when it has so many armed groups inside of it?
arafat should have destroied all of these groups and leave his police the only armed force in the palastinian authority.
Because in a war, soldiers are legitimate targets. When you start deliberately targeting their families then you are nothing but a terrorist.
DPsy,
When did Gurion offer to destroy the groups? Was it while he was still authorising the terrorist attacks or was it after his terrorists had succeeded?
I appologise for the post, and all.
I remembered incorrect, and I will search for info before, I will post anything on this subject the next time, to be as sure as possible.
I agree. I'm sure Yasser Arafat does too. However, the actions of Israel have rendered it impossible for him to do so, for two main reasons:
Well if Israel hands over Gaza and the Westbank to the Palestinians now, Israel would be very narrow in the land in-between. Can’t exactly remember how narrow, but VERY narrow. This means that if Israel gets attacked they will have problems moving the army around. This would practically divide Israel into two countries.
And as Israel is being threatened by the Palestinians, as mentioned before the militant groups have said themselves that they won’t stop until every single Israeli is out in the sea, they can’t give them the land until they feel safe.
You can probably say that Arafat will stop the militant groups when they will get Gaza and the Westbank, but the truth is that Arafat probably doesn’t have power to do so anymore. And until now he hasn’t showed that he is willing to use the small amount of power he has, to control the militants.
Jaqueline also never said it would be Palestine attacking. In case you missed it, but the arabs have a habit of invading Israel. It would be extremely easy for the arab armies to split Israel in half if they have control of Gaza and the West bank.
I suggest you calm down and you check a map.