If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨
Options
Essential support for under 25s
Essential support for under 25s
Take a look around and enjoy reading the discussions. If you'd like to join in, it's really easy to register and then you'll be able to post. If you'd like to learn what this place is all about, head here.
Comments
51% means nothing...It may be a majority but its not enough to effect major change.
Can i imagine the average person doing that? Yes I can....If, as i said before, they are subjected to Israels military doing its job on the Palestinian people.
Of course, thats assuming that the Israelis are liars which isnt really fair...If the suicide bombings stop then the Israelis will start to talk peace with the Pales and things may well get sorted that way.
PS whens your site going to be running, all it tells me at the moment is that you are fascinated by beautiful East Asian women (which I know already! ) <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Dont get me started on asian girls....Im getting very worried about my mental health. I believe the technical term is obsessive.
God only knows when im gonna get round to making a site.
They do so by stopping ALL attacks on the Israeli civilian population. Remember that its Palestine that needs the help here, Israel is the one in control.
If the BBC and other news agencies were showing Israeli tanks rolling through Palestinian homes but with no footage of suicide attacks on Israeli civilians then people would soon be swayed. While the suicude bombs keep going off, Palestine will never get the support she needs.
Im repeating myself here <IMG SRC="frown.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
In one of the Guardian articles I cited a while back, it tells of the Israeli army emptying the water storage tanks belonging to Palestinians and then riddling them with bullet holes so they cannot be refilled. This is not a surgical operation to stamp out terror; it is an attack on the Palestinian civilian population, and a terrorist one at that. And yet Jacqueline continues to claim that they are acting in self defence.
Make no mistake; the Israeli army is a terrorist organisation, and one significantly well equiped at that.
Can I ask what they are trying to acheieve by their 'terrorist' actions? Who are they trying to coerce into changing.
Simply terrifying civilians is not terrorism. There needs to be a political or ideological motive to the attacks before they can be called terrorism. The way you lot talk, it sounds like the Israelis are doing it for fun.
I understand how much you want to associate Israel with the people they fight but ive never bought the whole Israel = terrorist line.
They have made it more than clear which side they stand, and don't show what makes the israels do what they do, + it isnt safe to quote them as they will surely try to spice up a story when its not needed.
As Balddog said, the Israeli soldiers are not there for fun... They dont embrace the thought of death like the Palestinians do. Every Israeli mother would do what she could to keep her son at home, while an Palestinian mother gives her blessing and throws a party when her son says that he is gonna commit suicide and drag some jews along into death. They have a sick moral, and I would like to see what you would do when you couldnt even feel safe in your own house...
They have a choice, very simple; either they stop their acts and get their own state very soon, or they can go on and expect to see consequences.
Full details of that event are here.
Yes, the oppressed. Do you not follow the arguments at all SG?
Do you believe Palestine is entirely innocent...
you are a dumb ass.
The sad thing is that he doesnt even realise hes doing far more harm to these causes than good. People like steelgate make their causes look bad..
Poor bloke doesnt even realise it.
They goto these protests, but they refuse to accept both sides to the story.
They think, that because Israel have the army, and the capability to wipe Palestine out that they are the bad guys.
I'm surprised they kept their patience this long, and I think the fact they are withdrawing as a gesture is a good sign.
But people Like stealgate think that war can only be described in terms of tanks and jets.
The Israelis have had to live with a war of terror for decades. A war that hasn't used tanks or jets, but hundreds of people have died anyway.
Not all Israel's and or Palistianian's agree with what's going on. The parents of the last 18 yr old girl to commit suicide had no idea she was involved. She had a fiance, and a loving family. They didn't drive her to commit suicide, nor did they praise her when she did. This is not an issue of the entire population so much as arrogant and poor leadership from both sides.
I dont see your point. I wasnt asking about the original motive for setting up camp in Palestine back in the 40s. I was asking their current motive for their actions against the Palestinian people. What is their aim, who do they seek to coerce into changing policy?
I know full well about the history of Israel and the Jews. I fully accept that the occupation is wrong and the Israelis should totally pull out. Ive said this on many occasions but I just dont see Israel as being a 'terrorist organisation'..Heavy handed, violent, oppressive, butchers even....but terrorist? Nope, they dont fit the definition, sorry.
I dont think ive ever said that all Palestinians are terrorists or support terrorists so im not sure where your last paragraph is going.
I'm sorry I'm at work and in a hurry my last paragraph in my previous response referred to something J. the ripper wrote implying all Palistians approve of and praise suicide bombings. That is about as true as saying all Israelis believe in oppressing Palistinians. I think most civilians just want it to end.
I think until the majority of the Jews accept that the Palistians should have equal rights their will be a problem. But, due to poor leadership and a culture that appraises suicide bombing as an acceptable retaliation, their will be a problem. Its all about leadership. Think what Martin Luther King could acomplish in place of Arafat or if Sharon dealt with the roots of this problem instead of labeling it as a security problem that can be wiped out with military force(instead of seeing that military force just breeds more hatered resulting in a new generation of suicide bombers) . I'm not trying to say Israel is wrong or Palastine. I just think a large number of people in the West have a biased opinion, especially with biased media. I do my part by trying to see all sides. By questioning what causes someone to blow themselves up whether its right or not.
What original mindset? The jews were setup in Palestine because thats what we gave them. The original plans were to chuck the Jewish state somewhere in Argentina.
Most media I see is biased toward the Palestinians unfortunately. Very rare to find a totally neutral source. Would your charlotte be Charlotte, NC? Can I ask what media you watch over there?
Was Arab opposition to the arrival of Zionists based on inherent anti-Semitism or a real sense of danger to their community?
"The aim of the [Jewish National] Fund was `to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.'...As early as 1891, Zionist leader Ahad Ha'am wrote that the Arabs "understood very well what we were doing and what we were aiming at'...[Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, stated] `We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly'...At various locations in northern Palestine Arab farmers refused to move from land the Fund purchased from absentee owners, and the Turkish authorities, at the Fund's request, evicted them...The indigenous Jews of Palestine also reacted negatively to Zionism. They did not see the need for a Jewish state in Palestine and did not want to exacerbate relations with the Arabs." John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."
Inherent anti-Semitism? - continued
"Before the 20th century, most Jews in Palestine belonged to old Yishuv, or community, that had settled more for religious than for political reasons. There was little if any conflict between them and the Arab population. Tensions began after the first Zionist settlers arrived in the 1880's...when [they] purchased land from absentee Arab owners, leading to dispossession of the peasants who had cultivated it." Don Peretz, "The Arab-Israeli Dispute."
http://www.cactus48.com/earlyhistory.html
maybe you can read it and tell me if it sounds biased in your opinion. It relays that many Jews migrated to Israel before it was given to them as a state in hopes of reestablishing land. Some of these Jews included Zionists who had political objectives to reconquer the land they felt was once theirs. I didn't mean to generalize even though I can see where parts of what I said implied that. That's why I came back to say most civilians probably don't feel that way. I do think that the original Zionist train of thought still has a negative impact on the current situation. I'm always opened for new reading from different perspectives neutral preferred. I read cnn, watch local news, flip through the TV,read chat lines, talk to jewish and Palestinian people, and even look up news from other countries news sights on the web. I do more if I had time. Here is an insert from the above web page:
Was Arab opposition to the arrival of Zionists based on inherent anti-Semitism or a real sense of danger to their community?
"The aim of the [Jewish National] Fund was `to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.'...As early as 1891, Zionist leader Ahad Ha'am wrote that the Arabs "understood very well what we were doing and what we were aiming at'...[Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, stated] `We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly'...At various locations in northern Palestine Arab farmers refused to move from land the Fund purchased from absentee owners, and the Turkish authorities, at the Fund's request, evicted them...The indigenous Jews of Palestine also reacted negatively to Zionism. They did not see the need for a Jewish state in Palestine and did not want to exacerbate relations with the Arabs." John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."
Inherent anti-Semitism? - continued
"Before the 20th century, most Jews in Palestine belonged to old Yishuv, or community, that had settled more for religious than for political reasons. There was little if any conflict between them and the Arab population. Tensions began after the first Zionist settlers arrived in the 1880's...when [they] purchased land from absentee Arab owners, leading to dispossession of the peasants who had cultivated it." Don Peretz, "The Arab-Israeli Dispute."
also 90% of the arabs called palastiniens came to the area only in the recent 150 years.
there are 21 arab nations and only one jewsih state , that its territory is only 20,000 square km, that means 300+ ppl in oen square km, dont forget that 65 percent of israel is desert. for example, usa is what? 9.6 million square km. that means only 29 ppl per square km.
so dont forget its much easier for u to give out land for someone else.
besides there never was a palastinien country. the terrirotries occupied by israel in 67 belonged to jordan and egypt. they didnt want it back within the peace agreements between them and israel.
who said the borders of 67 are the ones that should be made? why take this years borders?
there were so many border changes within the past 80 years. why not take the borders of king's solomon's empire? it gets till irag u know...
look what happend in lebanon, israel withdrawled from the parts it occupied in 82' to the old border set by the UN and was approved by Koffi Anan himself, whats the resolt? hizballah terror inc. are bombing the israel border area and fire katyusha missiles to the israeli town nearby.
the israeli army trys as much as he can to avoid civilans casualties, thats why he risks so many soldiers entering house to house to watch out from harming civilians
if he wanted so much, he could have bombed all the place with planes and get it over with.
look what the usa has done in afghanistan, sent b-52 bombers over cities and jsut bombed the whole area, killing 400ppl a day.
and u critisize israel for killing armed palastiniens?
they send 14 year olds to suicide bombing
and use women as a human shield
if u want i can post here pictures proving this.
The Ripper:
please then explain why they find it necessary to shoot holes in water tanks. If you take the Guardian to be biased than you must assume that all news is biased one way and that none of it can be trusted. Journalists report true events whatever you believe.
stop making idiotic generalisations of the entire Palestinian people....
but Israel must act first because THEY ARE THE OCCUPYING POWER, something you still don't understand it would appear.
The Israeli action has no effect it simply makes the situation worse, which is why the situation is so fucked up....
I also agree that its good that Israel sent gound infantry in, if they felt they had to invade Palistinian homes at all. Let's just hope they did it to spare civilian casualties and not just b/c anti-semitism is brewing in almost every country in the world.
I don't agree that they are doing everything in their power to prevent civilian casualties. Maybe its not the massacre Palestianians describe, but I'd be willing to bet there is some fowl play. I also like how Israeli soldiers describe fighting Palstianian soldiers in their homes and still referring to them as terrorist.
As far as the U.S. goes, maybe we never would have had to venture into Aphganistan to begin with had we been a little more sympathetic toward the Palistinian cause.
I am not for suicide bombings or Israeli military occupation. I don't think either is a solution, but just an endless cycle until some kind of real leadership can step up and until the Israelis learn to focus on root problems and not treat this like a security issue with an infrastrucure that can be wiped out. Palstinian's should realize suicide bombing isn't a sufficient technique of retaliation nor is it moral or justified in any way, but in their defence they are desperate, opressed people without a military and with incompetent leadership, and fucked up religous views(when thrown into threatening situations) so maybe Israel is in a better position to step back and offer these people a future and some hope instead of tearing down there homes and breeding hate in their children. There is not clear right and wrong here in the present, although I feel like the Palestinians have kinda been shit on from the beggining. I feel sorry for the civilians on both sides and the lives lost.
No its not.....Not unless theres a vote on the issue. You said yourself just a few posts ago that there was marginal majority support for various issues. If 51% was so important then these issues would have been changed to suit the majority.
Tell me again how many Palestinians have died in relation to Israelis? I think its painfully obvious that Palestine is the desperate one here...Its Palestine that needs to act first or face extinction.
Er no...The commons doesnt come into things until later. The govt has to decide to take on an issue first. Which they wont do unless they have large majority support.
Can you really see any govt going ahead with such a controversial policy change such as Israel with only 51% of the population behind them? No chance...
Any govt that wants to stay in power will never effect such change without making sure they have large support beforehand. This is why Blair hasnt held the Euro referendum yet..He can only count on around 50% and its a close run thing. He will wait until he has 75% or so OR until he is forced.
Fingers crossed <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
That’s simply naive. Journalists know how to manipulate things so it will get out the way they want to see it. I will tell you a little story, maybe it will make you think twice:
The Washington Post wrote this article some months after the intifada started. Next to the article there was this picture of an Israeli soldier with a club in the air, and a man in front of him with blood all over the face. Next to the picture there was written “Israeli soldiers attack Palestinians in Ramallah”.
Then this e-mail with a letter to the Washington Post got forwarded. That e-mail showed the picture and the letter attached said that the sender of the letter’s son had been to Israel. Here he had taken a cab next to the Old City (Jerusalem). Then Palestinians started to attack him and his friends by throwing stones at them. The picture shown in the Washington Post was actually a picture of his son and a soldier. A soldier who saved his sons life. He was holding the club up in the air to protect him.
That just shows how much integrity some journalists have. As I said earlier, most of them are like dogs proving the Pawlow theory.
Well then I would like to remind you that I was in Israel before the whole operation began. Several times a day I would hear about Palestinian shootings and almost everyday there was a new suicide bomb…
After the operation began there has “only” been two suicide bombs. That’s a MAJOR fall in the attacks against Israeli civilians, so the operation did succeed in some way.
Commenting on Thanatos link: I just saw this video tape called “Jihad kids”. This showed how they in children programs support the suicide attacks. They showed several clips of small kids singing how they would give up their lives, how they would take over Israel with bombs and blood; quite contradicting to the Mickey Mouse in the background. The same video which took place from the years 1996-1998 (after the Oslo agreement) also showed Arafat talking to his people about how they where all going to be shahids (martyrs).
Once again you are looking at lame short-term "solutions" that is another reason why they are in this mess!
It reduces the attacks for a few weeks or so but ib years to come a new generation will come through still angry at Israel!