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Er no, thats not what I said at all.
Just because it makes it harder to move the army around, that doesnt automatically make the peace process a dead deal. I think you will find that if theres any serious threat of invasion then Gaza will be taken over within a day by Israeli forces.
PS, I wish you would stop with the paranoia thing..The Israelis are not paranoid. Their neighbours openly admit they want Israel destroyed. I suggest you look up the word paranoia.
Its not irresponsible at all...If an arab army(whuch includes the Pals) is poised to invade Israel then Israel would be perfectly justified in occupying Gaza in order that no attacks are launched from that area which would effectively cut Israel in two.
Yeah, and then what would happen? The UN, US, and UK would be there in two seconds. The Arab armies would have to withdraw.
The security buffer argument doesn't work for me. The Arab nations, while theoretically strong enough to do this, cannot possibly expect to hold out against a First World nation, let alone several.
Political leaders aren't like terrorist leaders. Most of these guys aren't stupid. They are not going to risk their armies and their regimes to attack Israel when they can't make tangible gains. This is not the 60's and the 70's, they have no chance of taking territory from Israel and adding it to themselves, and this is provided they can even take it from them in the first place.
[ 09-05-2002: Message edited by: Alessandro ]
Look at the Taliban, they attack and kill 3000 Americans. Look where it got them. Now the Palestinians are doing it. Is it me, or is it never a sensible idea to attack a country that can turn yours into rubble by simply pushing a button?
Oh and im not making any security buffer argument..We are talking about the possible results of a Palestinian state being set up in Gaza and the West bank.
If you are suggesting Israel is a '1st world nation', I do trust you refer to their military might. Morally, socially or by any other parametres, Israel is about 46,000th world nation.
Whoops. I guess I missed that in the previous posts. Thought you were talking about security buffer.
I've got to say that its not that likely for Israel to be overrun. There's no motivation for it in the political arena.
And I do agree that it would take weeks to get ground troops into the area, but I don't think that's as big of deal as you do. The US has huge airbases in Turkey and Germany that could send hundreds of planes to attack the invading forces. The stealth bombers that attacked Afghanistan took off from Alabama I believe and reached the tragets with in-flight refueling. While it won't stop a determined invader, it certainly will slow him down and thin his numbers.
Could you please explain yourself further?
As far as i know and have seen they are advanced, and don't need 46,000th world aid.
Actually I would call their achievements impresseing, concidering the age of the country and the military problems they have had. Not many countries would be able to climb so far up the ladder, going through what Israel has.
Their moral is what that has been discussed so far on these boards. Some people don't get the concept of selfdefence.
But I want to know why they stand so far behind, socially and by every other parametre?
Until now they have among others achieved being a leading agriculture and high-tech country. Never heard of a country with these achievements being reffered to as a 46,000th country, although I have never heard of 46,000 countries neither <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
ISRAEL OCCUPIES PALESTINIAN TERRITORY!!! <IMG SRC="eek.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
you still don't get it!!!!!
PALESTINIAN TERRORS ISRAEL TERRITORY!!!
Now let's face it. That's not a sentence in any meaningful sense of the word.
Come on Vox..picking on his language skills? Sounds like English isnt his first language so dont be so nasty..
I understood what he meant. Palestinians carry out terrorist attacks in Israeli territory.
Jacqueline,
I think what Aladdin and Toad were trying to say is that Israel uses tactics that few other nations would, and those that do are Third World nations.
The self-defense argument doesn't justify their actions totally as I think you're implying.
Sri Lanka is in a situation similar to Israel with the Tamil seperatists. They've lost far more citizens in the last 10 years, about 80,000 I believe, and have to deal with suicide bombers as well, except they're usually children rather than grown men. The Tamils are a stronger enemy than the Palestinians are, and yet the Sri Lankan government has not been accused of the scope of human rights violations that Israel has.
Israel is not a First World nation, although they will be sooner than most. I would say they're a Second World nation.
Economically, they're not even close. Three percent of Israel's GDP is US aid. The shekel isn't a hard currency. Israel's manufacturing, while advanced, is behind about 100 other countries.
Socially, I don't see how they aren't a First World nation. Israel has a very advanced, civilized population. (It's just the government that isn't) Perhaps Aladdin could explain?
And yes, the accomplishments of the Israeli people are quite enviable. Other than the Asian tigers or Japan, few other countries have come close to the rapid development of Israel.
[ 10-05-2002: Message edited by: Alessandro ]
Any country, when invading another, will eventually occupy that country's land. But first there is usually a war of somekind, or large battles fought.
The situation with Israel and Palestine is simply the same, but without the large war.
What do you suggest Israel does, sit and wait, give the Palestinans a chance at shooting them before the invade?
IMO Israel's reactions are no different to the reactions of the USA after September 11th.
It strikes me as amusing that everbody conviently forgets every other terrorist act and subscequent retaliation that has happened in the 20th and 21st centuries. Consider this. When the UK and USA attacked and invaded Afghanistan, we did so with no proof that would stand up in a court of law. Everything was conducted on purely circumstancial evidence. But even still, we invaded Afghanistan, and destroyed the Taliban government. Although they were an evil regime, we had no legitimate right to remove them from power did we?
Israel on the other hand, has proof that Palestinian terrorists are killing their citizens, any chance they get. When they invade Palestine, and try and confine their killing to the terrorists, everybody complains.
Right, I took those comments about Israel being a 1st world nation as an implication that the country is member of a 'high moral ground' whiter-than-white club of nations. A case of Us (the civilised, just and fair but tough-if-we-need-to 1st world) versus Them (barbaric, murdering obscure 3rd world countries).
Whilst I acknowledge Israel is a democratic state, where there is freedom of expression and elections are fair and legitimate, there are extremely serious violations of human rights being perpetrated by the state on a daily basis on the Palestinian population. There is also phenomenal religious influence in the day-to-day life, to the point where driving a car in the wrong day of the week could cause you to end up in hospital.
Whereas the latter point is regrettable but just about compatible with 1st world standards, it is the former, human rights abuses, that is totally incompatible with a nation that aspires to reach 1st world status. And when much of the population ignores or even approves of this behaviour, then the nation is morally bankrupt.
Thankfully there are many younger, secular people in Israel who do not approve of their country's tactics and are actively campaigning for change and lasting peace. But there are still too many who hold different views.
Before we get into a debate about their right to defend themselves, I am not talking about events in the last few months. I am talking about daily humiliation Palestinians have been subjected to at check points. The water restrictions they've had imposed on them for many years. The ban on exporting most goods or food products. The movement restrictions within their own land. But above all, I am talking about the Israeli army killing 14-year-old kids throwing stones at tanks. That amounts to war crimes at the very least. What's shocking is that it's been happening for so many years that we have grown accustomed to it. But think about it. What other country in the world (apart from someone powerful like China) would have been allowed to shoot unarmed population dead on almost a daily basis for about 10 years? The US has invaded countries for much less than that.
Until Israel stops committing this crimes, it cannot be considered a 1st world country.
Terrorist attacks on mainland Britain from groups based in N.Ireland (troubles based on religious and settlement issues as well) did Britain ever do anything on the scale of the Israeli action?