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Israel

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
I was quite suprised no-one was discussing it whilst I was away......

What do you think is the solution, or isn't there one?

What role should the US play?

Do you think that either side is justified in any of their actions over the last few weeks?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>I was quite suprised no-one was discussing it whilst I was away......

    What do you think is the solution, or isn't there one?

    What role should the US play?

    Do you think that either side is justified in any of their actions over the last few weeks?</STRONG>

    The US has already played too much a part in this stupid conflict. I say make the fight fair - give the palestinians some tanks, planes, choppers and boatloads of M16s and sit back - it will burn itself out.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    "Israel"

    We usually start with the false premises that it is a piece of realestate rather than a people...! And the jews are not 'israel' but this only complicates things.

    Actually, the current situation is hopeless...there is no room in the islamic world for any kind of jewish victory...and the jews can't give up the cheap palestinian labor force...they'll beat them into submision again but won't rid themselves of the problem...the excessive people problem.

    Simple solutions are seldom sought out in the beginning but must be resorted to in the end...Saudi Arabia is the canser of the East...they provide money and indoctronation for all of islam...nuke Mecca & Medina and put the survivors (if any) back on their camels pointed in a different direction, a direction that lets them know that they are lesser folk living in the shithole of the universe and there they will remain because they can't become civilized.

    Then in a thousand years...maybe we can consider once again bringing such turdworld folk into our future.

    And for those who hold to other than an imperical view...well chime in here, the bait is out, it's not a trap we've set but rather a discourse on discovering our mutual futures.

    OTOH, just nuke the temple mount and abandon the brutes of palestine who will not share what they have stolen from their neighbors.

    A couple of weeks ago I spent a lovely Saturday with my palestinian friend discussing current events in that sorry sandlot of a country...he being christian with many islamic friends...and much of his family trapped in their own homes...tends to have a different view that the news media...but holds out no hope for anyone having things better anytime in the future...particularly with US pouring $$$$$$$$$$ into the hellstrom!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The solution? Put a huge wall around Israel, put a huge wall around Gaza and the West bank..Fill inside of walls with water..I think thats the only sure solution <IMG SRC="frown.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    Now on a serious note <IMG SRC="smile.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    Unfortunately neither side trusts the other and neither side is willing to make the first move. What I think would work is this.

    Arafat and the PA need to openly say that they will deal with the terrorist groups in their midst, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Alasqua etc, if they get what they ask from Israel. At the moment, Israel has no reason whatsoever to grant anything to the Palestinians. If they give them all the land back, if they help establish an indendant Palestine then they will still have the suicide bombers and daily attacks because the terrorist groups dont want Israel to even exist. Arafat needs to guarantee that this wont happen. They need to publically guarantee that they will deal with these groups when they get what they wish. They must also stop the Palestinian gunmen, call a general ceasefire for the duration of talks and FORCE the extreme terrorist groups to keep this ceasefire.

    Now onto Israel.

    Israel needs to pull out of ALL of the Westbank and Gaza. They must return to the '67 borders and not carry out any more incursions into PA controlled land. They need to demolish the settlements they have built in these areas and they need to bring the Israeli settlers back into Israel proper.

    If after these things have been done, the suicide attacks continue or if Israel invades PA areas once again then the west needs to start making some threats. Hopefully that wont be needed because any UN presence in Israel or Palestine will result in a bloodbath.

    The US, and our role is to get the two parties to talk to each other. We need to get the two children together and bang their heads together until they agree to talk.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do you think that Arafat still has the authority to enforce any kind of ceasefire from the Palestinian extremists. Surely by constantly humiliating him the Israelis undermine the only leader they can deal with?

    What about the question of Jerusalem? I think it should be made a free city administered by the UN for the benefit of both groups.

    I also think the co-operation of neighbouring Arab states is vital to any peace agreement, I wish there representatives would stop spouting all this innflamatory shit... <IMG SRC="mad.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well, I believe that Israel should pull out their forces from Gaza and the Westbank. But ONLY when the Palestinians have completely stopped their suicide and actions and all their attacks on the Israeli population.

    For this to happen, the palestinians need to make some major changes. Firstly replacing Arafat. He condemns the terror actions, though it has been proved that he has direct contact with the terror groups. He says that he has put the people responsible for the attacks in palestinian jails, though they call his jails "the revolving door", you can guess why by the name.

    The raising of the children should also change. You can't achieve peace when you teach children to hate. That means no martyr camps where they teach kids how to make bombs and smuggling them inside the boarders, and replacing schoolbooks, as they are VERY anti-israeli.

    Also I dont think that the borders should change to the way they were before the war in 67. Jerusalem should by NO way be divided.

    [ 17-04-2002: Message edited by: Jacqueline the Ripper ]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper:
    <STRONG>Well, I believe that Israel should pull out their forces from Gaza and the Westbank. But ONLY when the Palestinians have completely stopped their suicide and actions and all their attacks on the Israeli population.</STRONG>

    So it is okay for Israel to continue to oppress the Palestinians? Don't you think that the Israeli occupation is the reason that the suicide bombers exist?

    <STRONG>
    The raising of the children should also change. You can't achieve peace when you teach children to hate. That means no martyr camps where they teach kids how to make bombs and smuggling them inside the boarders, and replacing schoolbooks, as they are VERY anti-israeli.</STRONG>

    I presume that by 'martyr camps' you mean refugee camps. These camps created by Israeli actions, and of course you will engender hatred if you treat people like shit.

    <STRONG>
    Also I dont think that the borders should change to the way they were before the war in 67. Jerusalem should by NO way be divided.

    [ 17-04-2002: Message edited by: Jacqueline the Ripper ]</STRONG>

    So basically your argument is that the Palestinians should stop doing whatver it is that they do (bomb, protest, throw rocks) and in return Israel can continue to occupy territory and oppress them.

    Hmmm, interesting and it might just work <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    Afterall, why would the Palestinians see anything wrong with that?

    ~~~~

    I have set my personal opinion down before in another thread, and it is reassuring to see other have the same opinions. Israel should withdraw and accept a the state of Palestine. In return the Arabs should accept the state of Israel.

    The 1967 borders were fine for the preceding 20 years, and only the ill advised attempted arab invasion changed them. It serves no purpose for Israel to retain those terrotories.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper:
    <STRONG>Well, I believe that Israel should pull out their forces from Gaza and the Westbank. But ONLY when the Palestinians have completely stopped their suicide and actions and all their attacks on the Israeli population.

    Also I dont think that the borders should change to the way they were before the war in 67. Jerusalem should by NO way be divided.

    [ 17-04-2002: Message edited by: Jacqueline the Ripper ]</STRONG>

    Well, isn't this a catch-22? The Israelis will not pull out the West Bank and Gaza Strip unless the Palestinians stop the suicide bombings, the Palestinians won't stop them unless the Israelis pull out.

    I thought that this was pretty obvious.

    The problem here is the political leadership. Israel had a real chance for peace when they had Peres as PM, they pretty mcuh fucked themselves when they elected Sharon. This man doesn't understand the meaning of the word compromise and uses military force as a way to combat his political weakness in Israel. Of course, Arafat is a greedy bastard too. He had the chance to get almost everything he wanted in 2000 and then tried to push for more than he deserved. I wonder if he'd take the deal now. These idiots don't realize that their people don't care as much about "winning" over the other side as much as they care about not losing lives every day and living in fear.

    As for Jerusalem, there is no way that one side can have the city all to themselves. Either it becomes a free city or its divided into two halves, both sides will not settle for the other to have it. Any Israeli leader who gives it up will lose all political support and any Palestinian leader who gives it up will be undermined by groups who will continue their suicide bombings regardless.

    In this case I think each side has an equal claim to the city.

    Giving it to one side is ridiculous. And suggesting anything but the pre-67 borders isn't far off either, that's the Palestinians main goal and it has strong support from international law.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>Do you think that Arafat still has the authority to enforce any kind of ceasefire from the Palestinian extremists. </STRONG>

    No, not at the moment....but support for these groups amongst the Palestinian population will(hopefully) drop off massively when the Israelis pull out of the occupied territories. This will leave Arafat with much more support to hunt these groups down. Unfortunately, he needs to guarantee he will do this in order to get the Israelis to do their bit. If he says this now then theres a good chance one of these groups will kill him.

    Jerusalem should be an international city as originally intended.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The only solution is for both sides to renounce their fucked-up religions. Then they could all live in peace, without having to hate eachother in the name of 'God'.

    But that's not going to happen, obviously. So I think the US and the UK should pull out and let them kill eachother 'til they either realise the futility of it, or there are none of them left.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man of Kent:
    So it is okay for Israel to continue to oppress the Palestinians? Don't you think that the Israeli occupation is the reason that the suicide bombers exist?

    How would you explain the attackers of September 11th then, why did they exist? They were also suiciders.
    The suicide bombers believe that they should take over the world. Many of the Islamic groups have said that they wouldn’t stop their actions until all Jews are drowned in the sea (Arafat also said so himself years ago). So even if they get what they claim to want now, they would keep on fighting also afterwards. The suiciders are a result of pure ignorance and arrogance.
    I presume that by 'martyr camps' you mean refugee camps. These camps created by Israeli actions, and of course you will engender hatred if you treat people like shit.

    I mean summer camps made for kids, where they teach them how to be proper martyrs. Listen, no one said that the Palestinians live in bliss in their camps, but what should Israel do with them at the moment, when they are all giving up their kids, to kill Israelis?
    Some months ago, all of Jerusalem was chaos, after the information that a 13 year old boy was going to make a suicide attack. Fortunately he was found. But to this day, I still don’t get how a mother can send out her child to perform such an act? It isn’t something that the kids just plan from one day to the other, they are thought and brought up to hate.

    As former prime minister Golda Meir said “There will only be peace when they start loving their children more than they hate Israel”.
    So basically your argument is that the Palestinians should stop doing whatever it is that they do (bomb, protest, throw rocks) and in return Israel can continue to occupy territory and oppress them.

    No, I am saying that they should stop their attacks on the Israeli civilians, and then the talks of a Palestinian state can begin properly. And as far as I know Israel’s plan isn’t to occupy territory, but to defend herself.
    And when I said that Jerusalem shouldn’t be divided, I didn’t say that I was against an international Jerusalem.
    Originally posted by Lexicon:
    they pretty mcuh fucked themselves when they elected Sharon.
    The Al-Aqsa intifada had already started when they elected Sharon. So it didn’t start when he got elected. Everyone criticises him, but what other choice can someone have in his place???
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't believe that the US can play any part in peace negotiation, if there ever are any. The 3rd party would have to be neutral and with the US being Israel's biggest ally, I don't think that the peace process would get very far.

    If the US are serious when they are telling Israel to stop it's offensive, why don't they really lay down the law by suspending military aid.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Stopping military aid now wouldnt make a jot of difference. Israel is the military superpower in the middle east. There was an article on this a few days ago that I will try to find..

    Israel is a military giant and can sustain itself for quite some time.

    I also believe the Israelis are stopping the offensive. They will be out of the towns within the week.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Everyone criticises him, but what other choice can someone have in his place???
    not be a tosser?

    Basically someone has to make the first move for peace, is it going to be the centrallised, well-run, modern state or is it going to be the disparate group of rebels with little centraslissed authority?

    All Sharon does is make the situation worse with constant reprisals, he gives no thought to the reasons why the Palestinians hate Israel so much....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And what will you do after the first move has been made, and the attacks are still going on?

    As I wrote earlier in the thread, many of the islamic groups have NO intentions of being satisfied when they get their goal.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Work at preventing them and at curing the problem in the long-run rather than looking for idiotic short-term "solutions" like bulldozing the camps into the ground....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And how would you prevent them???
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In the long-run you do it by removing the underlying source of hatred but in the short-term 2 seperate states will surely make it easier to check who is entering Israeli territory.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nothing to do with the topic but I suggest that you go U75, look in the politics forum and read the "anarchism and vegetarianism" thread. It is hilarious.........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's not just who is entering Israeli territories. The suicide bomb in Netanya, 2-3 weeks ago, was performed by an Israeli arab.
    And how would you remove hatred? I mean, its not something you cure with a pill.

    A lot of propaganda has been built up. People don't check the facts, and start to believe it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The ahtred for Israel by the Palestinians can only be removed over a period of decades but it obviously starts by stopping killing them!

    Never forget that the Israelis are an occupying power, they have invaded Palestinian territory and settled it illegally, what ever way you look at it that is wrong and the Israelis must be the ones to offer some sort of deal for peace, they must make the first move!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Zionist conspired to secretly buy back land that they claimed was rightfully theirs due to the kingdom of David and Soloman 2000 yrs ago. They bulldozed the homes of thousands of Palesinians and ran them in exile from their own homes. They lined entire families up against their houses and gunned them down. They basically created a desperate environment of hopelessness and despair. So I feel king Abdullah of Jordan is right when he says it is not a security issue when children are blowing themselves up. You have to look at the root cause. You can't move inside Palestinian camps and break down a terror infrastructure. All Sharon is doing is carrying on a cycle born from hate and desparation. He's only teaching a whole new generation of children the hate and desperation they need to grow up to be suicide bombers themselves. He is an idiot and needs to withdraw immediately, apologize and work on a political solution that offers the Palistinians some hope. He is the cause for terrorism. Suicide bombers aren't a result of ignorance and and arrogance so much as fear and desperation. They don't want to take over the world in the name of Islam(Bin Laden was trying to teach the states a lesson for their foreign policy in Iraq and Israel, not trying to take over the U.S. Its fucked up what he did, but he did get his point across). So I'm not trying to say suicide bombing is justified, but its all these desperate people feel they have as a means of defense against such brute power. I also feel the media(at least in the U.S.) is so biased its hard to see the picture nearly as clear as it should be seen. I do agree the authorities on both sides are for shit and incomperable. But it surprises my that some jews who were persecuted so harshly can not come to grips with what they have done to the Palestians. Even if the truth is obvious its hard to reverse 50 yrs of settlement onto palestinian lands.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And what about the Camp David talks in the summer of 2000?
    Barak offered them WAY more than anyone EVER expected. Still the failed to agree.
    Israel did give them a chance, that they wont get with any other prime minister for the time being.

    Arafat blew it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by ian patrick:
    They don't want to take over the world in the name of Islam(Bin Laden was trying to teach the states a lesson for their foreign policy in Iraq and Israel, not trying to take over the U.S. Its fucked up what he did, but he did get his point across).

    In the Koran it is written that the muslims should kill all the infidels. A Jihad against whoever isn't a believer of their believe.
    Also written somewhere to "support your brother, even if he isn't rightful".

    And who gives Bin Laden the right to "teach the western civilization a lesson"?
    Why can't he use words?
    There are other ways to get a message through than violence.
    Whoever has lost a loved one, or been hurt themselves under such a terror attack, can never take these attacks seriously, and think about the message of them. And at the moment, A LOT have been hurt one way or another by these attacks. Less people try to listen to what they wanna say, and would rather save their own life. Who can blame them?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper:
    <STRONG>

    In the Koran it is written that the muslims should kill all the infidels. A Jihad against whoever isn't a believer of their believe.
    Also written somewhere to "support your brother, even if he isn't rightful".

    </STRONG>

    Yeah, and in the Qu'ran its also written that Muslims should respect and protect Christians and Jews because they are people of the book as well.

    What's your point? The question isn't whether or not a basis for anti-Jew or Christian sentiment can be found in the Qu'ran, it obviously can. Just like right-wing Christian groups can find a basis for their hateful views based on passages in the Bible. The totality of teachings in both the Qu'ran and the Bible , however, don't support these minority
    interpretations.

    However, these minority interpretations have become vastly more popular and will continue to gain support among the common people as long as the Israeli governemnt continues to occupy Palestinian territory. It's not like they're doing in a way designed to limit collateral damage either.

    You're right, Arafat should have taken the deal in 2000. He's regretting it now, I'm sure. But both sides are greedy. They each ask for things they know the other can't give.
    The pettiness of the squables between these two sides leads me to believe that only three things will ensure peace. Either there has to be a peacekeeping force that neither side would dare to provoke, ie a strong 1st world country, change the political leaders on both sides, or let them kill each other until there's no one left.
    The current "solution" proposed by Sharon is ridiculous. If these people haven't given up after thirty years of fighting, what makes him think that doing the same thing over and over will get results now?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not justifying Bin Laden's actions any more than I am denying his extremist iterpretations of the Koran. But, he awakened the world to the fact that their are big problems in this world between the middle east and west besides what we read in the paper. I don't think we would be having some of these chat lines conversations in such detail had it not been for this rude awakening. I for one have done a ton of research into the foreign affairs of my country as well as research into the Islam faith that I may not have done otherwise. I have asked myself again and again what could have caused such hate. So nothing justifies killing thousands of innocents in my opinion, but in his mind "talking" about solutions wasn't sparing the lives of Iraqi civilians from U.N. sanctions or Palestinian lives from the Israelis.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper:
    <STRONG>
    There are other ways to get a message through than violence.
    </STRONG>

    This from the person who supports Israel's programme of military attacks on civilian populations?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Vox populi, vox Dei:

    This from the person who supports Israel's programme of military attacks on civilian populations?

    NEVER have I supported the killings of civilian people of any kind. But I do support the military attacks on the militant groups.
    It is sad that the civilians die, but that is the result when the people who are being searched for hide behind old people and use their kids as shields. It is amazing how little they give about human life.

    Just for your information, Israel gave the palestinians 5 days to get the innocent out. To transport the kids and the elders to safer places. But instead they were more busy of setting traps for the Israeli military.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Barak offered them WAY more than anyone EVER expected
    there is a difference betweena better offer and a good offer, that offer still did not include a united Palestinian state, which is the main issue.....
    It is sad that the civilians die, but that is the result when the people who are being searched for hide behind old people and use their kids as shields.
    is this a widely reported phenomenon or are you making it up? Why is it that even the Israeli soldiers are dissenting when they are ordered to fire missiles into civillian areas. Israel/Palestine is a crowded area you can't avoid civillians.....
    , Israel gave the palestinians 5 days to get the innocent out. To transport the kids and the elders to safer places
    so take them out of the refuggee camps they were forced into by Israel and send them......... where?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg,

    What do you mean by a united Palestinian state? I thought that they were offered an independant Palestinian state by Barak.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    is this a widely reported phenomenon or are you making it up? Why is it that even the Israeli soldiers are dissenting when they are ordered to fire missiles into civillian areas. Israel/Palestine is a crowded area you can't avoid civillians.....

    They get told to go after the heads in the terror organizations. So when the palestinians have already gotten a warning to leave the place, they have to do it. A soldier can't screw up a whole operation, but maybe he will try avoiding hitting places that are crowded.
    But as said before I don't support the killings of the civilians at all.

    And yeah, it has been proven how they send their kids out first, and stand behind them, when they try to attack the Israeli soldiers.
    so take them out of the refuggee camps they were forced into by Israel and send them......... where?

    To the palestinian towns who were left out of the operation.
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