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I just try to read papers which I trust in, by journalist who are not shitheads. You have to compare your info, see who wrote it down most accurate, and check out the source. Of course I dont do that every time now, but I know where to search for my info.
journalists will always show things that will not bore their readers/viewers
so they will always try to show things as attractive as they can.
there are also reporters like CNN's Rula Amin
that is originally an arab so that u can see by her reports that they are pro-arab.
its the quraan that leads them to all of the suicide bombing and gives them the authority to kill innocent civillians, u can see it in suicide bombers tapes they leave before they blow themselves up, and also every time that a suicide bomber was catched they found a quraan on him.
the suicide bombers are promised to have 72 virgins when they reach heaven.all coz of their religon. in not saying all muslims are like that, but many are supporting the idea.
its not just in the palastinian case but everywhere,
Osama bin laden did what he did by justifying his deeds in the islam.
look whats goin on in the Phillipines, group of muslims are having terror attacks against civilian phillipines , demanding a muslim state in the south of the country.
on july 2001 a young palastinien wanted to bomb himself in the central bus station in the town of Afula, Israel but was caught by the police. on a search on him the cops found out he heavily ducktaped his penis to his balls so they will stay intached and he could enjoy the 72 virgins he was promised to get by his religous leaders.
[ 25-04-2002: Message edited by: DPsy ]
The reason that there are suicide bombings is because of they terrible way that the Palestinian people have been treated! How would you feel if your home had been demolished and you were forced to leave everything including your job and your possesions and move to a refugee camp all because the people forcing you out say that their ancesters lived their 2000 years ago.
Suicide bombings are obviously wrong but they way that the Palestinian people are treated by Israel it is no wonder that they happen! Here are the facts about how the Palestinians have suffered:
Over the past 53 years Israeli forces have murdered half a million Palestinians, tortured 250,000 and continue to buldoze thousands of Palestinian homes in the occuppied terrortries! In the present troubles since September 2000 430 Palestinians have been killed, 21,000 injured including 7,000 children, 3,000 have been disabled for life! The source of those figures is here
[ 25-04-2002: Message edited by: stealgate ]
ISRAEL IS THE OCCUPYING POWER!
WTF? what a load of bullsh*t.
half a millon?
the israeli army kills only armed palastinians that try to attack them or that have been proofed to be involved with terror.
sometimes civilians do get killed, it is not on puropse, when a solider see an arab woman or just a man he doesnt shoot them. but when an armed palastinian sees an israeli he will kill him as soon as he can.
the civilian casualties of the palastiniens, which are very few, are caused if they are nearby a missile launched for a car a wanted terrorist is in, or if a terrorist is hiding in their house and shoots from there, the soldiers shoot back and sometime unfortenately some civilians get hurt.
the houses that you may see in jenin that have been demolished are houses where armed palastiniens were shooting from.
the town of jenin has been proved for beeing the place where most of the terrorist came out from for suicide bombing.
there whole palastinian propaganda is full of lies, because they want the world to think that israel is evil and palastinans are pure, and as i can in this forum they are quite succeeding.
in example -
at first the palastinians said as much as 700 hundred people have been killed in jenin,
they said there was a massacre.
now after they digged in the wreckes , it was found out only as much as 52 bodies were there, about the same toll of armed men the israeli army said its killed.
and something funny:
2 months ago, the palastinians said , on their national television, that in Gaza an Israeli woman is suducing young palastinians by standing on a tank all naked but her panties and when they come near her she pulls out a gun frmo her panties and shoot them. does that sound reasonable to you? i was laughing my ass off when i saw it on tv.
u cant pretend to think that all the arab nations want peace and israel is the one that dont want the peace.
in 48, after the declaration of israel's independents all the arab countries around israel attacked her because they didnt like the idea of an israeli state, and they wanted to push all the jews to the sea.
they did not succeed, in 67 they tried one more time, they faild. in 73 they tried once more and eventualy faild.
did u know that Jordan is over 80% palastinian? do they need another country? they dont want israel to exist thats the reason they are doing all this.
stop being so naive.
[ 26-04-2002: Message edited by: DPsy ]
In Denmark the Hizb-ut-Tahrir, has put out death threats against the Jews on their website, quoting the Koran. Maybe these quotes were not aimed at the Jews originally, but that is what they make them out to be now. They teach hate, and expect peace.
And generally I am sick of people saying, “try to understand them”, I will NEVER accept the fact that they intentionally try to kill civilians. It is sick, and the ones that do understand should try, just for a day, to walk around in the streets of Jerusalem. And then I want to see how much they understand the fact that a bomb blew up 7 minutes after they have left a place. Or how much they understand when they see the siblings, who have all lost their legs due to a bomb in their bus on the way to school.
As said before Israel can not afford giving the Palestinians Gaza and the Westbank as long as they have their neighbours and the Palestinians as a threat against their nation.
Btw, talking about Jenin I wondered if you knew that in TV they show the same houses all the time? In reality the real battle took place in an are of only 70m2. Did you you know that the palestinians have themselves bombed some of their homes, when their plans of bombing the soldiers didnt succeed?
[ 26-04-2002: Message edited by: Jacqueline the Ripper ]
That really doesn't wash with me. It sounds like an Isreali press release.
I have read first hand reports from the refugee camps that go into details of how paramedics and children were purposfully shot at, about how the Israeli army dliberatly destroyed most of the Palestine ambulances, leaving a medical service of little to none. People were shot in the backs from a distance as they ran away. People in a crowd. How could they have been singled out as terrorists?
Of course, if you looked at you post in another way, it could be interpreted as saying 'if there is a terrorist in a camp of 500, they will open fire on everyone in the camp.'
Where are you from, out of interest?
Nobody who comments about this issue is unbiased. This issue inspires strong feelings in everyone and to say its possible to be totally neutral and unbiased is just silly. Its impossible.
Ok its very simple...There are several options.
#1 - Palestinians continue the suicide attacks, eventually the Israelis say enough is enough and do something drastic to end the problem once and for all.
#2 - The UN/EU can try and force peace through military action. This will result in tens of thousands of UN dead along with the probably total destruction of Israel, Palestine and any other country who is unlucky enough to be closeby. The US will come in on the side of Israel and we could have WW3.
#3 - The Palestinians stop the suicide attacks immediately. They take on the passive stance and if Israel continues their attacks and occupation then they will be scorned and pressured massively by the international community. Israel will more than likely stop its attacks and pull out of Palestine anyway once the suicide attacks stop..
I know which i prefer.
The KKK quote the Bible in literature encouraging people to attack blacks and other minority groups. I fail to see your point in making this statement. The ordinary Palestinian people are not terrorists, yet they are under attack. Why?
I'm sick of the arrogant single-mindedness on both sides that is preventing talks, attitudes such as "I will never try to understand them" do not help prospects for peace. You seem to want peace, but only if it is Palestine that capitulates, not Israel. The Israeli army intentionally targets civilian ambulances and infrastructure, including hospitals. This is not conjecture or hearsay, this is FACT confirmed not only by journalists but also aid agencies. Not only do civilians die in these attacks, the impair the ability of the Palestinian people to treat sick civilians, resulting ultimately in more deaths.
Where on Earth do you get off being so insular? What do you think it is like to be a Palestinian in Ramallah, with tanks, soldiers and helicopter gunships smashing your town to pieces around you?!? A LITTLE more uncomfortable than fearing a bombing. And don't say I cannot begin to imagine; I live in London and have had to experience fears of IRA attacks many times.
Israeli children have lost limbs. It is unimaginably horrific. But at least Israel has the resources and infrastructure to treat them. What of the Palestinian children who are horribly injured by the Israeli army (and you cannot deny that it has happened) who do not have Israeli medical assistance?
I didn't know the Palestinians were blowing up their own houses, no. But then maybe that's because it hasn't been reported in a single mainstream news source, including, as far as I am aware, even the most right wing press. If I am wrong in this assertion, please direct me to REPUTABLE sources for such information.
Listen Vox...
If the Palestinians capitulate then the Israelis have stated they will pull out of the occupied territories.
If the Israelis capitulate then the suicide bombings WILL CONTINUE, as has been stated many times by Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
There is no reason to disbelieve the Israelis, just as there is no reason to disbelieve Arafat when he says he will stop his personal terrorist group attacking.
Now tell me which is the common sense option....Side A capitulates and there is peace or Side B capitulates and the suicide attacks continue..
Which sounds the better option?
In my opinion Israel can give the Palestinians the Westbank and Gaza. But at the moment it would be literally suicide for the Israeli nation.
You have many times stated that Israel should, as the strong one, stop the circle. But what can Israel do when they have offered land? When they have stood back and let it go after horrible suicide attacks like the one in the Dolphinarium night-club killing 21 young lives, or the one in Jerusalem by the pizza place where mostly young mothers and children got killed? And it all continues... What can they do, when they see the a rapid uprise in attacks and Palestinian people standing in line to get to their 72 virgins?
So don’t go and say that Israel hasn’t tried, cause most proves say that they definitely have.
The Palestinians economical state should not be blamed on Israel. We all know that they get massive economical support. But the money has vanished. Its vanished deep into Arafats pockets. And maybe he should take care of his people, instead of encouraging to go and kill themselves, instead of smuggling drugs and weapons and making illegal trades around the world.
Here is a little quote out of a honestreporting.com article on the battles of Jenin
As said they were battling on minimal space, and the Palestinians fighting had caused damage with their weapons and bombs as well.
Also keep in mind that Israel could have attacked the from the air, killed them all and have accomplished their mission within half a day, without having any casualties on their side. Instead they sent out troops to fight on ground, jeopardising their own lives. That does show that Israelis aim is not to kill Palestinians, but to save themselves.
Please, don't feel obliged to apologise. Ignorance is rarely the fault of the ignorant.
I disagree strongly. We're not talking about Israel decomissioning a large proportion of its substantial army or airforce, or indeed its nuclear weapons. Indeed, at exactly what point would the Palestinians transform from being so poorly equiped that they have to use themselves as weapons, to being able to directly challenge an army the size of Israel's?
Indeed, were Gaza and the West Bank given to the Palestinians, it would remove the majority of their legimate reasoning for attacks against Israel. Should these continue, international opinion, upon which they must rely, would turn sharply against them.
You have many times stated that Israel should, as the strong one, stop the circle. But what can Israel do when they have offered land? When they have stood back and let it go after horrible suicide attacks like the one in the Dolphinarium night-club killing 21 young lives, or the one in Jerusalem by the pizza place where mostly young mothers and children got killed? And it all continues... What can they do, when they see the a rapid uprise in attacks and Palestinian people standing in line to get to their 72 virgins?
So don’t go and say that Israel hasn’t tried, cause most proves say that they definitely have.
[/QB][/QUOTE]
The Palestinians economical state should not be blamed on Israel. We all know that they get massive economical support. But the money has vanished. Its vanished deep into Arafats pockets. And maybe he should take care of his people, instead of encouraging to go and kill themselves, instead of smuggling drugs and weapons and making illegal trades around the world.
I read that and thought "honestreporting.com? - this should be a laugh!" It turned out I was proven right upon visiting the site. Even the immediate blurb is:
Hardly sounds reliable and unbiased, does it? Try quoting from respected news agencies such as Reuters or AP, or indeed aid organisations and the UN, not Israeli propaganda.
Jeopardising their own lives is saving themselves...? I see...
Also, come to terms with the fact that the ONLY reason they do not blow up the entire cities is international opinion. There are numerous records in which Sharon admits his desire to kill Palestinians.
Why would the Palestinians continue suicide attacks if their demands have been met?
On another matter, people keep making subtly denegrative remarks about Islam in general, which frankly rather lowers the tone of the discussion. Were I to start making such remarks about Judaism, which I have no will nor intention of doing, I would immediately be accused of anti-semitism. Let's keep it sensible and discuss the issues, not resort to ignorant insults.
Because thats what theyve promised to do...Islamic Jihad, Hamas and the other terrorist groups will continue to launch martyrdom operations against Israel until they have totally destroyed it...They are very open with this promise of theirs.
Perhaps if the Palestinian state were created with sufficient police and infrastructure, without this being destroyed by Israel as they are currently, extremist groups such as this could be brought under control.
All groups have extremists; the suffragists had suffragettes, both Irish Nationalists and Unionists have associated terror groups, the civil rights movement had violent factions. These groups tend to hinder the cause, but cannot be used as an excuse to refuse to search for peace.
The Israelis demand Arafat arrest terrorists, yet they destroy his police stations and kill his policemen. Surely they're not trying to make it look like he isn't cooperating by destroying his means of cooperation?
Brought under control? The ONLY way Israel can do as you suggest would be if Arafat guarenteed that he would bring these groups under control once his demands were met.
What possible motive for peace does Israel have if they will get bombed regardless of which way they turn....They pull their troops out they get suicide attacks, they stay in and they get fewer suicide attacks.
If Israel were promised that there would be NO MORE suicide attacks after a Palestinian state was established then I am sure they would pull back and help establish said state.
At the moment, whats the fuckin point? The bombings are gonna continue either way.
Well maybe my ”ignorance” as you call it, is blocking me, but you explain me how an apology can be ignorant???
Honestreporting.com or not (I will try to find another quote I have seen somewhere if it bothers you), but if the Palestinians didn’t have bombs, weapons etc. how would you then explain the 13 killed soldiers, who got killed at one time? Did they blow up themselves?
Jeopardising themselves is saving their families and their next. It’s a survival for the continuation of the Israelis. So it is saving “themselves”.
Do you think that Israel cares anymore. I mean there will ALWAYS be someone criticising them. If they really wanted to, they could have killed them all. You know that...
The Israelis are not searching to kill. It is actually a sad fact that they are only 54 years old, and already in the top 10 of the military super-powers in the world. And that is not cause they want to kill, but cause they need to defend themselves. They have been threatened from the very start, and could have used so many of the resources which go to the military on other stuff.
Sorry but in my ears that is quite contradicting to what you said in the top of your post. But maybe it is just me being ignorant? <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Who says the only form of fighting is military? Arafat can fight for the Palestinians at the negotiating table, but not when his cities are under constant attack on a scale that is MASSIVE in comparison to the suicide bombings, and he himself is effectively held hostage, along with his administration, by the Israeli army.
The only reason for this cycle of violence is the battle between the IDF and these extremist groups, Hamas, IJ etc.
Again we are back to the vicious circle and again I will state that the Palestinians are losing this one and they need to do something to break the cycle or else they will die.
The deaths are currently about 3-1, Pales/Israelis. The IDF are getting more and more severe with their military actions so expect that ratio to rise in the near future..
It doesnt take a genius to work out whos going to win a war of attrition here.
Show me where I claimed the Palestinians do not have weapons. Quote me saying it. I know for a fact you cannot, because I have not said it.
What is with the Israeli victim obsession. Millions died in the holocaust. It was a vile and horrific event. But millions of homosexuals, gypsies and other so-called undesirables also died, and have not developed the view that the world is trying to destroy them.
Do the Israelis genuinely think that everyone is out to get them? They need to seriously re-evaluate their mentality.
Also, the "fight for survival" of the Israelis could begin a little closer to home. The massive drive to "bring home" Jews from across the world, presumably to swamp out the Palestinians, has resulted in an influx of millions of impoverished Eastern Europeans who are not themselves Jews but claim to be so in order to escape poverty and live in the relative luxury of Israel. This could be seen as a threat to the continuation of Israels. Strangely, as long as these people continue to support Sharon, it is not.
Although I wonder what will happen when there is finally enough of them to elect their own political leaders...
There is always someone criticising Britain. There is always someone criticising the EU. There is always someone criticising practically everyone. Most simply deal with it and move on - they don't stop caring and start massacreing.
When are you going to accept that the Israelis are an occupying power and that occupying powers are, by definition, not defending but are in fact attacking? If they do not want to kill, why are they killing people?
Probably.
I am not here to create enemys or get people to dislike me, but I am not gonna bend for other peoples opinions. If you have a problem with me, thats fine. Go on with your insults.
After being involved in 5 major wars with their neighbours in the last 54 years and having every single one of their neighbours dedicated to their total destruction, dont you think the Israelis have a right and a reason to feel as though people are out to get them?
Its not paranoia if they really are after you.
The Israelis, like Balddog has pointed out, will recieve suicide attacks anyway. The Arabs see Israel as a nation to be viewed with contempt. They will never be content until ISrael ceases to exist.
The fact that the Israelis haven't gone all out, and leveled every city within close proximity shows their restraint. Compared to America's response with Afghanistan for example, Israel's is akin to the small lad, who sits on his own in class fighting back for once.
America's response was akin to the classroom bully, being prodded up the arse with a pointy stick, then proceeding to unleash a torrent of tables and chairs.
But...there was no strong international criticism. As soon as the underdog starts to try and fight everyone complains. It seems Israel is the only country in the world that isn't allowed to defend itself.
If I were Sharon, I'd have done a lot more than attempt to scare off the terrorists. I'd have destroyed the bastards.
Let's look at some of the wars in which Israel has been involved...
So yes, Israel has had wars with its neighbours. But these wars tend to be caused, on the whole, by Israel, not the surrounding Arab states.
Suez canal was blockaded by the arab nations and Israeli ships were barred from using it...Obviously there were other contributing factors but the arabs cutting off Israel was the issue Israel had with them. Cutting off Israel = aggression
Six day war...I think we both know its not as simple as you like to make out...Massive arab armies forming up on the borders with Israel, arab nations forcing the UN peacekeepers out of the area. An invasion was imminent and to deny that simple fact is just silly.
Yom Kippur....Well WW2 can be directly linked to the treaty of versailles which the allies caused..Were we responsible for Hitler invading Poland and the rest of Europe?
1981....Again, you forget to mention the rockets and bombs coming from those areas. Its not as though the Israelis invaded for no reason.
I truly cannot believe that you are actually denying the fact that the entire muslim arab world wants Israel removed.
what did the UN and international community do while the Russian attack on Chechny?
nothing. they stood and look from the side while more than 10,000 chechnies were killed. and all this russia did cause of what? 2 terror attacks that killed about hmmm 20 people?
Israel's entrance to the westbank few weeks ago was in a goal to find terror infanstructure and destroy it, did u know that in entering Jenin, Nabulas and Tul Karem ten of explosives labs that were used for making charges for suicide bombers?
they caught tens of wanted terrorists that sent suicide bombers to kill israeli civilians.
as i send this message right now, 3 israelis killed and more injured when a palastinian terrorist broke into their house.
you say that if there is a palastinian police force , it will stop the Islamic Jihad and Hamas attacks?
between 1996-2001 , when the palastinians had full operating police force, it didnt help a bit stoping terror.
the USA always pressed on Arafat to arrest those involved with terror, you know what he did? he arrested them and the next day released them (the spinning door trick), this was said even on CNN , Sky BBc whatever.
just 3 days ago, a palastinian crowed lynched 3 otehr palastinians that were SUSPECTED by Yasser Arafats fatah movment for cooporating with israel. after they were all dead they cut off some of their body parts and walked with it in pride in the streets of Ramallah. aint it barbaric?
if you dont belive me , i have a pic...
about what you said that palastinian were shot against their homes 50 years ago becuase of the establishment of israel, its all not true. many palastinian ran away from their own will because they only THOUGHT that the jews will kill them, which you can see is not true because all the palastinians that remaind are now israeli-arabs with equal rights. but you can see israel is getting stabbed in the back , for example half a year ago an israeli-arab blew him self in the train station in the town of Nahariya. there are some assiting hamas and jihad.
but anyway im sick of seeing all this nonsense lies everyere such as that israel killed a million palastinians, or even in other forums sayings that israel was the one who did the 11/9 attack on WTC.
in yom kippur war 73' Syria and Egypt attacked Israel because their "pride" was hurt in 67' when they thought that 6 arab countries could wipe out israel, and didnt.
and wanted their land back.
you say vox, that israel conquered Sinai because they wanted that land so much?
if so, so why did they give it back to Egypt after the peace talks?
about the golan heights that were conquered frmo Syria in 67' - Syria is a country that doubly you can count on when signing peace with. from 48-67 when the syrian set on the golan, they shot fisherman that were fishing in the sea of galilee, bombed the israeli settelments in the Jordan valley. the golan heights is an important stratigic area for israel for preventing syrian bombing of all the settelments in the jordan valley and city of Tiberias.
just for your information , 2 days ago, the Egyptian primeminister (not president mubarak) said on Dubai's national TV - "if the arab nations will provide Egypt with 100 Billion $ , egypt will attack Israel"