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Israel

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Both sides are terrorists, it just happens that the Isrealis are a nation-state, so can do as they want. Israelis blow up innocents all the time in land that isnt theirs, and never has been, and the Palestinians understandably want revenge for this. Until Israel stop occupying land they have no right to, and return to 1967 borders, nothing will be better. The ball is in the Israelis court..however, they have shown themselves to be no better than the people who flew the planes into the WTC.

    Of course, if the suicide bombings continue after Israel get the hell out of Gaza and the West Bank, then they are right to re-conquer the land. But lets not pretend the Israelis are por innocent bystanders against the evil Moslems, most of the problems in the Middle East are directly caused by the Israelis believing they can do as they wish without suffering any consequences, and the US Government among other Western powers allowing them to do so.

    After all, if the Palestininas had F16 jets and helicopter gunships they wouldnt need suicide bombers.

    [ 19-04-2002: Message edited by: Kermit ]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    and the Jewish mafia in the US Government
    careful there, I don't like that argument, it has little relevance or truthfullness in my mind and will undoubtdly bring crys of anti-semitism.....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>careful there, I don't like that argument, it has little relevance or truthfullness in my mind and will undoubtdly bring crys of anti-semitism.....</STRONG>

    Fine, Ill change it then. I still believe it to be true, though, and Im not anti-semitic in the slightest.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jewish mafia?

    Only reason there is so much pro-Jewish stuff going on in the USA is because Jews, as a demographic group, are more likely to vote than any other group in America. Something like 90% of them go to the booths and in a time of such massive apathy, thats a lot of votes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The US are still allowing the Israelis to get away with murder. Literally.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So are we!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>So are we!</STRONG>


    The whole West is. But I believe that when the US says 'jump' the UK says 'how high?' Sometimes thats a good thing, like with Iraq, but sometimes its a bad thing, like with Israel.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kermit:
    <STRONG>Both sides are terrorists, it just happens that the Isrealis are a nation-state, so can do as they want. Israelis blow up innocents all the time in land that isnt theirs, and never has been, and the Palestinians understandably want revenge for this. Until Israel stop occupying land they have no right to, and return to 1967 borders, nothing will be better. The ball is in the Israelis court..however, they have shown themselves to be no better than the people who flew the planes into the WTC.

    Of course, if the suicide bombings continue after Israel get the hell out of Gaza and the West Bank, then they are right to re-conquer the land. But lets not pretend the Israelis are por innocent bystanders against the evil Moslems, most of the problems in the Middle East are directly caused by the Israelis believing they can do as they wish without suffering any consequences, and the US Government among other Western powers allowing them to do so.

    After all, if the Palestininas had F16 jets and helicopter gunships they wouldnt need suicide bombers.

    [ 19-04-2002: Message edited by: Kermit ]</STRONG>

    Well put...

    Israel has carte blanche to do what they wish in the Middle East. The US doesn't allow any other government that they support to get away with this much.

    And how does Israel repay this support? By ignoring US calls for an end to the violence? They didn't even pay lip service to US demands for withdrawal. If 3% of my GDP was in aid from another country you bet I would be a little more accomodating to them.

    Its not like this military action is going to do anything about the suicide bombings either. The main reason for Sharon to do this is to show his political opposition that he's tough on the Palestinians, not to end the violence. They know it isn't going to weaken the Palestinians resolve!

    Without the means to face the Israeli military head to head these incusrions are just going to give the Palestinians more reasons to use their only weapon, suicide bombers.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper:
    <STRONG>

    And yeah, it has been proven how they send their kids out first, and stand behind them, when they try to attack the Israeli soldiers. </STRONG>

    Well that's alright then. It's ok for one of the worlds biggest military machines to bulldoze houses and to kill anyone who dares to go out side to look for food. It's ok because they are murderous scum who let their own children take bullets for them. I bet that they also kill cute puppies aswell.

    I have never heard of palastinians using Children as shields. I have however heard of Isreali soilders using palastinians as human sheilds when searching suspects houses.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper:
    <STRONG>

    To the palestinian towns who were left out of the operation.</STRONG>

    Where would they stay in these already overcrowded refugee camps? Would you really want to send your children to a totally different area which could be attacked by Israeli forces at any time?
    It's not as if the Israelis are give safe hospitality to anyone who asks for it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Another statistic:
    <STRONG>

    Where would they stay in these already overcrowded refugee camps? Would you really want to send your children to a totally different area which could be attacked by Israeli forces at any time?
    It's not as if the Israelis are give safe hospitality to anyone who asks for it.</STRONG>


    The Jenin refugee camp is relatively small. There is the entire city of Jenin right next to the refugee camp. Its not as though these camps are in the middle of the desert surrounded by nothing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    palestine is a turdworld shithole filled with people who hate each other...let them settle it themselves in any manner necessary...one side must eventually win.

    I have said for years that with the israelis for friends we, US, could have the rest of the world for enemies...now we do!

    What ever possesed these Eastern European jews who only adopted the religion abut a thousand years ago to presume to think that they had a homeland in palestine? It is an honest question...not bait!

    Our world hasn't heard the last of 'ethnic cleansing' and it has been going on in palestine for a very long time...but the truth is given the opportunity the islamics would exterminate every non moslem on the planet...you don't put your ass in the air and bow to the moon god and worship their 'heavenly' rock at the cobba...you die!

    Nuf said, it's too early in the morning to get excited!

    <IMG SRC="eek.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I came across this forwarded e-mail. This was what a Danish organisation wrote to an Israeli company, and the reply from the Israeli company. I think that it pretty much sums up the Israelis point in this whole conflict. It’s a bit long, but a good read, and gives a good point of view by an Israeli living in the place where all the “excitement” takes place.

    The letter from a Danish union, called SID General Workers Union:
    Just now we're ready to buy 60 pieces off your “Radix protector net
    solution”.
    But for the moment, when the Israeli military is behaving so rough in the
    Palestinian Areas, nor I or my Union feel that it's is right to make business with companies from your country.

    We hope that this ugly war will stop soon - and also we hope that Israel and
    Palestine will agree on peace.

    Sincerely Yours
    Jens Peter Hansen...



    Response letter by the Israeli company Radix:
    Dear Jens Peter Hansen

    Regardless of the fact that seven years after the Oslo agreement most of
    the Palestinians live under full political and economical control of Yasser Arafat, the Palestinians dare to claim that their brutal terror attacks
    against Israeli civilians is a result of living under Israeli occupation!!!

    You buy this nonsense; you blame Israel for defending itself against the
    most brutal terrorism campaign against civilians the world ever saw. Your heavy pressure is aimed toward Israel instead of the terrorists.

    I hate to say that my friend but you SUPPORT TERROR!

    Since I believe that you are a honest person and I don't really think that
    you mean to support terror or harm Israel, I would like to inform you few things that you might forgotten but that your media do not bother to remind you.

    18 months ago, Palestinian leader - Mr. Yasser Arafat rejected Israel's
    offer to get full control on 97% of the land he claimed plus alternative land for the remain 3%. 100% of the land he claimes!! This offer is considered by
    most of the Israelis as far more than Israel can offer without risking its
    security.

    The Palestinian responded breaking the peace talks and massive terror
    against Israeli civilians.

    Any Idea why did the Palestinians reject such generous offer? The answer is
    very simple. Yasser Arafat doesn't want a state next to Israel. He wants a Palestinian state build on the ruins of Israel. A Palestinians state
    instead of state of Israel!

    Do you support that? Do you really think that Israel should let the
    Palestinians build a state on the ruins of Israel? Would you let them build their state on the ruins of Denmark?

    Imagine yourself drinking beer in your lovely Tivoli gardens when a bomb
    exploding under the seat spreading your body all over the garden. Imagine yourself in a situation when a bus exploded in the centre of Copenhagen and you
    know that your daughter might be on that bus. You can't reach her because
    thousands like you trying to reach their relatives using the same overloaded cellular network. Now imagine that this is the everyday situation in Denmark
    for 18 months.

    Would you accept such situation? I don't think so.
    No mater what is the cause of the Palestinian suffer, my daughter is not
    responsible for that. She is not the one that has to be blamed for the Palestinian suffer and she shouldn't pay the price for Arafat's megalomania.

    Let me clearly state that I have no problem choose between doing business
    with you or support my government in its effort to protect my daughter's life.
    Because of your support in terror I hold you personally responsible for my
    daughter safety.

    I really hope that the Israeli government will not bend under your unfair
    and unbalanced pressure and continue with the work of rooting out terror from this region. Yes, even if I lose your business. If we fail, god forbids,
    we are doomed and you are next in line.

    Yes, Palestinian civilians pays heavy price. Many killed by our military
    actions. Yes, we all think that this is terrible. But this is unfortunately the situation when terrorist find shelters behind civilians. Labs where bombs
    are manufactured are located in civilian neighbourhoods. Palestinians
    "brave" warriors took shelters behind women and children, in schools and in ambulances.

    There is one person to be blamed for the Palestinians suffer - Mr. Yasser
    Arafat.
    For six years since he got the full control on the Palestinians life, all
    he did is building the terror infrastructure, preparing for a war instead of developing the country and improving the life of his people.

    By the way, I didn't notice that any of you or other peace lovers sensitive
    Europeans doing anything to stop the terror against Israeli civilians. Your voice was not heard when terrorist kept exploding themselves among Israelis
    in night-clubs, cafes, busses, schools, markets and hotels in the centre of
    the cities taking huge number innocent lives.
    You people woke up only after Israel stood up and start to fight back.

    We will do all it takes to defend ourselves because no one else will do it
    for us. Definitely not the Europeans.
    My mother is still alive to remind me what she has gone through in your
    civilised Europe 60 years ago.

    We are going to defend ourselves even if it will disturb your sensitive
    soul in Europe and even if cost us to lose some business with you. But I advise to you to wake up. I know that you do not mean to encourage the Palestinian
    to go on with their brutal terror actions against civilians. Am I wrong?

    Best regards
    Dov Shoam
    General Manager
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Here is the point of view of an ordinary Palestinian living in his home country under attack by the Israeli army: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4398695,00.html

    Read it, and continue to defend your views that the Israelis are not acting as thugs and terrorists.

    Here they are holding clergymen hostage inside a church, denying them food, water and medical treatment: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4394894,00.html

    If the Israelis are acting as a civilised nation, conducting a precise operation against evil terrorists, why are they refusing to allow press access? http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,688490,00.html

    As long as you continue to defend their brutal and attrocious actions, I will treat you with the same contempt as I treat people who support Muslim, and indeed any other, terrorist groups. The Israelis are not targeting a carefully chosen list of terrorists - they are rounding up all young men and imprisoning them in concentration camps or simply executing them on the spot. They are raping an entire people in the way that the Nazis raped them. It must stop.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Didn't read the articles yet, I will though. But I can already answer some of your questions.
    Originally posted by Vox populi, vox Dei:

    Here they are holding clergymen hostage inside a church, denying them food, water and medical treatment

    They havn't denied them anything, they just told them to get out and then they can get what they need. If they are innocent then it wouldnt be a problem for them to get out and get checked by the army.
    If the Israelis are acting as a civilised nation, conducting a precise operation against evil terrorists, why are they refusing to allow press access?
    It's simple, they don't want to be responsible for their lives. A journalist in a wrong place can surely mess up an operation.
    As long as you continue to defend their brutal and attrocious actions, I will treat you with the same contempt as I treat people who support Muslim, and indeed any other, terrorist groups. The Israelis are not targeting a carefully chosen list of terrorists - they are rounding up all young men and imprisoning them in concentration camps or simply executing them on the spot. They are raping an entire people in the way that the Nazis raped them. It must stop.

    First of all, I have seen and heard enough proves to stand firmly on the ground with my points of view. Not saying that it can't change, but at the moment I am still supporting the Israelis 100% as I dont think that they can act differently.

    Secondly, you can't compare what Hitler did by any means to what is happening in Israel now. NO Israeli action has been made, before there were Israeli bodies on the table. No actions are made without giving the innocent palestinians the most decent chance they can get, to get out safe. Of course it doesnt always go as planned, but as said the civilians are not are not the aiming point. You cant even say that the palestinians have the same morals.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper:
    <STRONG>Didn't read the articles yet, I will though. But I can already answer some of your questions. </STRONG>

    They are not questions, they are statements. As I said; read the articles and continue to defend Israeli actions.
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper:
    <STRONG>First of all, I have seen and heard enough proves to stand firmly on the ground with my points of view. Not saying that it can't change, but at the moment I am still supporting the Israelis 100% as I dont think that they can act differently.
    </STRONG>

    You don't think they can act differently? They're inherently able to act only as brutal animals? Or do you mean there is nothing else they can rationally do? I think we both know that is not the case. There can be no peace until the violence stops, and one side must stop first. If Israel so hungers for peace, why does it perpetuate the violence? I forgot...turn the other cheek is New Testament.
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper:
    <STRONG>
    They havn't denied them anything, they just told them to get out and then they can get what they need. If they are innocent then it wouldnt be a problem for them to get out and get checked by the army.
    </STRONG>

    The Israeli army has cut off the water supplies to the church and refuses to allow food to enter. In my book, this is denying the occupants of the church food and water. It should not be conditional on them surrendering; it is afterall their church and a sanctuary of God.

    You really seriously think that if they leave the Israelis will simply "check them" and send them on their way? Keep in mind that this is the same army that is imprisoning and beating 15 year old children without charge or suspicion. I doubt that those held hostage by the army would get any further than outside the range of the media, before being shot.
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper:
    <STRONG>
    It's simple, they don't want to be responsible for their lives. A journalist in a wrong place can surely mess up an operation.
    </STRONG>

    Yes...having observers around who might tell the outside world what is happening whilst you're trying to commit genocide can certainly be...uncomfortable.
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper:
    <STRONG>
    Secondly, you can't compare what Hitler did by any means to what is happening in Israel now. NO Israeli action has been made, before there were Israeli bodies on the table. No actions are made without giving the innocent palestinians the most decent chance they can get, to get out safe. Of course it doesnt always go as planned, but as said the civilians are not are not the aiming point. You cant even say that the palestinians have the same morals.</STRONG>

    "They killed us...so we'll kill them..."? Giving innocent Palestinians "time to get out" is not acceptable. It's a bizarrely warped moral system. There is evidence to suggest that the Palestinian army is bull dozing houses with the occupants still inside. This is shocking. But WHY are they bull dozing civilian houses at all? THAT is more shocking.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    First of all, I've only read the last couple of posts on this thread, but I can kinda guess what its about...

    I have my own opinions on the whole thing, which are generally with the majority but are nevertheless merely an outsiders opinions (I'm sure Thanatos would have something to say if I even dared to attempt to understand what was happening <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">)

    However, one of my friends recently went to Isreal with a group of internationals to protest against Isreals actions. They stayed, amongst other places, in the refugee camps, and with the Palestinians. They wore international symbols, but were still shot at, even as they ran away (by Isreal's troops) they witness Palestinian ambulanes being shot at with no provaction, they saw young children left dead on the streets, along with the women and men of Palestine.

    To be fair, if I was in that church, I would be too damn scared to go out and face Isreal, innocent or not.

    Another point, directed more at Vox, as well as many others in the past. I do get sick of hearing people say that Muslims are all terrorists. That is stupid and inacurate. Arguments that their religion itself is based on evil is also stupid. Read the bible. It tells you to kill anyone who doesn't believe in (the Christian) God. Even your own family. Even the children. I will, if you need proof, find the exact passages, but I can't be bothered now, I need an early(ish) night.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Mindless all the way:
    <STRONG>Another point, directed more at Vox, as well as many others in the past. I do get sick of hearing people say that Muslims are all terrorists. That is stupid and inacurate. Arguments that their religion itself is based on evil is also stupid. Read the bible. It tells you to kill anyone who doesn't believe in (the Christian) God. Even your own family. Even the children. I will, if you need proof, find the exact passages, but I can't be bothered now, I need an early(ish) night.</STRONG>

    Did I imply that I thought all Muslims were terrorists? <IMG SRC="eek.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> If I did, I certainly didn't mean to. This is not my belief at all; I know that calling all Muslims terrorists because of a few extremists is like calling all Christians racists because of the KKK. Only a very very small proportion of Muslims are terrorists, and they do not practice genuine Muslim beliefs, such as that the taking of life is wrong. I am fully aware of the massive contradictions in Christianity.

    I'm actually quite shocked that you seem to accuse me of espousing disgusting bigottry and hatred.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hey Vox,
    I forgot...turn the other cheek is New Testament.

    What are you implying?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Lexicon:
    <STRONG>Hey Vox,
    What are you implying?</STRONG>
    That Jews don't believe the New Testament presumably.

    That said, I think that the Middle East situation has become more than a religious battle, in the same way that NI has.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What does everyone think that the EU should do, there has been talk of economic sanctions and even the threat of military force! <IMG SRC="eek.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If I sum up the majorities stand in this thread it is that:

    1.The Palestinians are not to blame for anything.
    2.The Israelis are the bastards who should just take a chill, and do nothing when they get attacked.
    3.Israel should get rid of Sharon, while Arafat hasn’t even been mentioned.

    So it is ok for the Palestinians to attack, and expect that it will have no consequences. Sure, I wish I could rob a bank and not get arrested… Reality doesn’t go that way. Every cause has an effect.

    And I ask where does Arafat stand in all this? While everyone can’t seem to condemn Sharon enough, Arafat has been unnoticed in this thread. I see him as a BIG obstacle in the peace process. I mean no one bothers about his history, his illegal businesses, the fact that he has a lot of the money that goes to the Palestinian welfare in his own pocket, and the that he is (economically) connected to the suiciders. We all know that he never made the effort to get peace established in the first place, and if you ask me that Peace-Nobel prize he's got is worth as much as used toilet paper.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>What does everyone think that the EU should do, there has been talk of economic sanctions and even the threat of military force! <IMG SRC="eek.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"></STRONG>


    Sanctions..maybe from the EU but theres no way on earth you will get the US to agree to that. I also think you will find that if the EU imposes sanctions then the Israeli people will band together and stick right behind their govt.

    As for military force..Well thats a joke.
    Unless the EU is willing to lose tens of thousands of soldiers then they wont be taking on Israel anytime soon. Israel has one of the top military forces in the world and are back by nuclear weapons..

    Theres no way in hell that the west will intervene with military force. Especially not now, seeing as how controversial an issue this is. Maybe if more people supported Palestine. At the moment its probably about a 50/50 split amongst the UK population(Would be more if the bombings stopped).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree with you Balddog, military force is unthinkable and sanctions would simply add to the Israeli sense of persecution....

    I do think though that the EU must do something even if it is just applying diplomatic pressure.......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>I agree with you Balddog, military force is unthinkable and sanctions would simply add to the Israeli sense of persecution....

    I do think though that the EU must do something even if it is just applying diplomatic pressure.......</STRONG>

    Maybe pressure on Palestine would help as well. Takes two to tango.

    Ive said it before and ill say it again....If Palestine stops the suicide attacks on civilians then they will have their own state within the year.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Indeed, but I firmly believe that it easier for Israel to make the first move, don't you agree?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:

    Ive said it before and ill say it again....If Palestine stops the suicide attacks on civilians then they will have their own state within the year.

    Good said.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>Indeed, but I firmly believe that it easier for Israel to make the first move, don't you agree?</STRONG>

    Easier? Both sides are between a rock and a hard place but only one side needs to gain widespread international support, Palestine.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Israel can do it because they have centralised authority, the government orders it and it happens. If Arafat orders the suicide bombers to stop then it would appear that they don't listen......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>Israel can do it because they have centralised authority, the government orders it and it happens. If Arafat orders the suicide bombers to stop then it would appear that they don't listen......</STRONG>

    It may be physically easier for Israel to order the troops out but politically its not so simple.

    As someone said earlier..Palestine will run out of Martyrs before Israel runs out of bullets.

    Israel is gonna win this one if it keeps going the way it is. Palestinians have a choice....They can stop the suicide bombings, win world opinion and win their statehood.................or they can cease to exist as a people within 10 years.

    It really is that simple im afraid.
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