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When you would apply Islamism to the core beliefs that all muslims hold - knowing that Islamism is used to describe terrorists - you link all muslims to Bin Laden in one monolithic block. Better then to say Islam when we mean the broad faith.
I've deliberately not posted quotes from the quran, hadiths and history, which three alone inform muslims of their duties simply because I'm uneasy singling out Islam. There is nothing unique about Islam's inherent problems for a humanist.
There are many apostates sites which echo my concerns and there is an ongoing public debate about how to reconcile the unbelievable and unpleasant aspects of Islam with the temperament of todays 'muslims'.
I simply won't pretend as you and Blagsta do that Islam doesn't have core beliefs and teachings that if a tory recommended you'd call him a fascist.
You don't seem to quite know what you mean - or at least you're not communicating it in any clear way.
Rubbish. You're the one doing that - "That's all true Clandestine, but we shouldn't pretend Islam is all hearts and flowers or is an easy and willing friend of the west - although it is us who impose on them, granted."
I'm not pretending that though. What I am saying is that the Muslims that I have talked to about this stuff are actually very liberal in their outlook. You then go and to paint them either as (a) not Muslims or (b) deliberatly lying to Infidels. It is you that is being dishonest here.
Erm, as far as I'm concerned the dispute is about whether those " parts of Islamic doctrine ...are recognised by all muslims"
Which is what YOU keep claiming - what I have said, and continue to say is that those parts are not translated literally by all muslims at all - each individual interprets them as an individual, and many temper, ignore or substitute them according to their socialisation, experience and world view.
In exactly the same way as followers of other beliefs deal with the central pillars of their respective faiths.
:sour:
So you're ducking out of a thread again because you can't engage with my arguments? Well done.
Muslims are not unitarians - there are shared core beliefs - these constitute Islam (and not Islamism as Blagsta believes).
The 'muslims' who ignore and substitute according to personal taste aren't Muslims (I advised you earlier to find out what the word means) - I have friends like this but I won't pretend that they are muslims even if they do - they are generally not religious at all.
I'm a fundamentalist pedant no doubt, but I think it's better to be clear about what we all believe, and the meaning of the words we use.
Anyway I'm leaving this now cos I've stated my view and I'm only repeating myself. :wave:
You're either a bit slow or you're deliberatly misinterpreting my posts. I suspect the latter.
Aren't Muslims according to who? You? I'll take their opinion on the matter thanks.
Close the door on your way out.
The fact of the matter remains that you have no right whatsoever to determine who is and is not a muslim. There are many people who consider themselves muslim who do not adhere to principles you describe as fascist, and there are many in this society who lump all members of muslim communities together, regardless of how liberal or illiberal they are.
And the spoutings of the likes of you fuel an Islamophobia which ends up being directed at human beings who are trying to make sense of the world in exactly the same way as any other human being.
You certainly have repeated your bollocks over and over again - and it is complete claptrap.
It is not a fashion, it is a reaction. According to Robert Pape, associate professor of political science at the University of Chicago, the main cause of suicide terrorism is a response to foreign occupation. He has a new book published: "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism". He compiled a database of every suicide bombing and attack around the globe from 1980 through 2003 and says that "the presumed connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism is misleading, and it may spur American policies that are likely to worsen the situation."
Google on "Blowing Up an Assumption" and Robert A Pape.
I hope the British Security Services are reading this. It seems that we can reduce the risk of a suicide bomber in London, merely by not occupying other people's countries.
That said Blagsta(and ftp) have given me something to work on...
And he "knows" of their existence....
:chin: :chin:
Who then does decide who is a "muslim" ? The individual who considers himself one ? How about I give that a try and I may find out what one is...
Seeker is a "muslim".
Agree or disagree ? Could I have a reason ?
seeker
omfg is that the time?
:nervous:
So, were you one of the 1.6 million people who ticked the 'muslim' box in the 2001 census?
What census ?
Are you trying to tell me that is what a "muslim" IS (someone who ticks a {specified} box on a {specified} piece of paper in a {specified} year) ? :chin:
seeker
Nope.
Perhaps you're one of the 930 000 people in the uk who attend a mosque at least once a week?
An individual who enters a specified building within a specified location at a specified frequency ? ? Are we there yet ?
seeker
:wave:
There are certainly a number of individuals in "seeker land" . (Various names/labels given to them(and taken by them) for god knows
seeker
Do you actually have any opinions?
I`m of the opinion that this thread could be in vain,Blagsta,you philosophical practitioner you.A madman with a lantern told me that "God is dead"(c/o "fascist"? Friedrich)
seeker