Democracy in the Middle East latest: the people of South Lebanon have spoken

Former Member

I agree that people are individuals - I've never said differently freethepeeps is riffing on matters unrelated to my posts whatever he thinks.

There is no contradiction - there are things all muslims believe and there are things open to interpretation.

You have a lot more time than me to go round in circles.

Former Member

morrismarina wrote:

I agree that people are individuals - I've never said differently freethepeeps is riffing on matters unrelated to my posts whatever he thinks.

There is no contradiction - there are things all muslims believe and there are things open to interpretation.

You have a lot more time than me to go round in circles.

So, an example of one thing that ALL muslims believe would be what exactly?

Former Member

morrismarina wrote:

I agree that people are individuals - I've never said differently freethepeeps is riffing on matters unrelated to my posts whatever he thinks.

There is no contradiction - there are things all muslims believe and there are things open to interpretation.

You have a lot more time than me to go round in circles.

You're contradicting yourself. You stated that there is no room for interpretation then stated that there is. The Muslims I have spoken to emphasise that it is very much about choice. I suggest you go and speak to some real life Muslims, then come back to me.

Former Member

freethepeeps wrote:

So, an example of one thing that ALL muslims believe would be what exactly?

There is no God but Allah.

Former Member

morrismarina wrote:

There is no God but Allah.

So there are no muslim agnostics or atheists?

Former Member

freethepeeps wrote:

So there are no muslim agnostics or atheists?

Yes, much like there are no christian agnostics or atheists.

Former Member

freethepeeps wrote:

So there are no muslim agnostics or atheists?

None. You need to learn the definition of 'Muslim' and study the source.

Former Member

morrismarina wrote:

None. You need to learn the definition of 'Muslim' and study the source.

Once my uncle said to me with some suspicion: "You're not a Christian, are you?" "No," I said. "I'm an atheist." "So am I," he replied. "But I am still Muslim." "A Muslim atheist?" I said. "It sounds odd." He said: "Not as odd as being nothing, an unbeliever."

Hanif Kureishi

Former Member

morrismarina wrote:

There is no God but Allah.

Yes. But there is lots of room for interpretation within that. I have heard Muslims state that they believe that the god of Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc are all one and the same.

Former Member

Blagsta wrote:

Yes. But there is lots of room for interpretation within that. I have heard Muslims state that they believe that the god of Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc are all one and the same.

They're absolutely right - it's the same 'God'.

Former Member

are they not all the same God though, Jesus is mentioned in all 3 religions, though his importance varies...i just thought they were different branches of the same God...

Former Member

I have heard Muslims state that they believe that the god of Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc are all one and the same.

Islam has hardly any room for interpretation. Hence only 2 denominations which only differ over the Prophets heirs, not the actual Godly nature of the Quran itself.

Islam doesnt have nearly as much Scholarly interpretation as Christianity does, they didnt have a Reformation or an Enlightenment.

Former Member

The Matadore wrote:

Islam has hardly any room for interpretation. Hence only 2 denominations which only differ over the Prophets heirs, not the actual Godly nature of the Quran itself.

Well this is utter bollocks for a start.

Former Member

Well this is utter bollocks for a start.

No it isnt. There are 2 denominations in Islam which make up 99% of all Muslims - Shia and Sunni.

In both the Quran is completly infallible. YOu are not allowed to challenge it or question it in any way - hence the lack of scholarly study when compared with Christianity.

Former Member

Utter utter bollocks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Schools_.28Branches.29

Former Member

The Sunni sect of Islam comprises the majority of all Muslims (about 95%)

The major branches are Sunni and Shi'a, with Sufism often considered as an extension of either Sunni or Shi'a thought. All denominations, however, follow the five pillars of Islam and believe in the six pillars of faith (mentioned earlier).

The Qur'an is regarded as an infallible guide to personal piety and community life, and completely true in its history and science.

Hence no need to question it. There has not been an Islamic enlightenment in the same way there was one in Europe in the 17th and 18th centuries. The Quran has yet to be analyzed like any other book, like the bible was.

Former Member

Look, I can selectively quote too!

It consists of four similar schools of thought (madhhabs) which interpret specific pieces of Islamic practice. They are named after their founders Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanafi, and Hanbali. On some issues, each school of thought differs slightly on fiqh (thoughts on how to practise Islam) although all accept the fundamentals contained within the Holy Quran. All four accept the validity of the others and a muslim can choose any one that he thinks is agreeable to his ideas.

...and this isn't even getting into Islamism.

Former Member

although all accept the fundamentals contained within the Holy Quran.

Hence they all agree with:

The Qur'an is regarded as an infallible guide to personal piety and community life, and completely true in its history and science.

Hence no breadth of scholarly study of the Quran.

Former Member

Hmmm...that may well be the doctrine, but not everyone follows that to the letter. The ones that do would be called fundamentalists or Islamists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_fundamentalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism

Former Member

I know a number of Muslims and not a single one of them approves of mistreatment of women or any other such nonsense. Some of them even have the odd drink.

Just as most Christians don't believe they should kill their neighbour if he's working on the Sabbath as their Bible clearly instructs them to do, most Muslims don't adhere to fundamentalist rubbish either.

Former Member

So Mat, insofar as you posit yourself as a judge of the extent of scholarly study (or lack thereof) around the world, one must suppose you possess this scholarly ability yourself.

Do enlighten us with your vast scholarly studies into the Koran (or any subject upon which you regularly spout inane your presumptuous condemnations). Im sure we would all love to see samples of your incisive exegesis.

Former Member

Matadore is right where he says in the thread that the Islamic world really needs it's reformation and enlightenment, but I fear that globalisation and zionism is gonna beat them to it and precipitate an almighty clash.

Former Member

Actually Morris, it seems Mat (and dare I say you) are conveniently forgetting that it was Islam and the arab world and its scholarship which made Europe's reformation and "enlightenment" possible. Whilst Europe was mucking about in religiously imposed ignorance and illiteracy, it was Arab science, Arab math and Arab medicine which made every attempt to inculcate itself into European thought (often met by howls of "heresy" and associated suppression).

Considering where the west (US and Europe) are today, despite our achievements on the technological front, returning to presumtpive notions of moral superiority whilst visiting hegemonic war upon weaker nations, I would argue that we arent quite as "enlightened" as Mat's tabloid worldview would suggest. Certainly we are no more enlightened than those he and his ilk regularly condemn, merely more efficient in our barbarism.

Former Member

That's all true Clandestine, but we shouldn't pretend Islam is all hearts and flowers or is an easy and willing friend of the west - although it is us who impose on them, granted.

Former Member

There you go again, painting Islam as one thing. I think you mean Islamism, not Islam.

Former Member

Clandestine wrote:

Actually Morris, it seems Mat (and dare I say you) are conveniently forgetting that it was Islam and the arab world and its scholarship which made Europe's reformation and "enlightenment" possible. Whilst Europe was mucking about in religiously imposed ignorance and illiteracy, it was Arab science, Arab math and Arab medicine which made every attempt to inculcate itself into European thought (often met by howls of "heresy" and associated suppression).

Indeed. And you could add women's rights (yes, women's rights everyone) and religious tolerance to the list. Across the Muslim world, from the Middle East to Andalucia- or Al-Andalus as it was known- women were treated with respect (a far cry from the appalling treatement they received in Christian Europe) and Muslim, Christian and Jewish communities lived together happily and in harmony.

Thank fuck we sent our brave Christian Crusaders to deal with such 'barbarians' eh?

Former Member

If you like you can take it that I mean only the parts of Islamic doctrine that are recognised by all muslims (by muslim I mean only those who submit, not those who try and reform).

Former Member

morrismarina wrote:

If you like you can take it that I mean only the parts of Islamic doctrine that are recognised by all muslims (by muslim I mean only those who submit, not those who try and reform).

Yes, you mean Islamism or fundamentalist Islam.

Former Member

morrismarina wrote:

If you like you can take it that I mean only the parts of Islamic doctrine that are recognised by all muslims (by muslim I mean only those who submit, not those who try and reform).

So far you've offered. as evidence of this is "There is no God but Allah", which has proven NOT to be universally accepted.

Also, its hardly surprising for a monotheistic religion - most Christians would say that there is one God.

Got any more?

Former Member

How friendly should anyone be to toward those who have routinely bombed, invaded, politically manipulated and otherwise kept them and their nations dependent on extortionistic and exploitative economic policies and frameworks through which we have made our own nations fat, smug and technologically superior?

Easy to point a finger from a position of comfort when one doesnt have to be on the receiving end of all our elite leaders regularly devise to perpetually constrain the "developing" nations.