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Hang on. Morrismania has admitted that he hasn't actually talked to any practising Muslims about this. I have, in quite a bit of depth. Whats your problem here?
My "problem" is that your attitude is nasty.
Also, talking to whatever Mohammed/Ali/Kazim/whatever from the street, isn't always as rewarding when searching for an essence, as studying the source itself...
Interpretation has a lot to do with it - but the original is also needed to see what these interpretations are based on.
I went on a date with a muslim lady on saturday, but the subject of women rights did not come up I must admit. If we did talk about it, I would be very careful in avoiding then claiming that this tiny sampling represented "most muslims".
I am amazed at the throwing away of peoples critical faculties when it comes to others criticising abuses perpetrated against women. I would think that equal rights for women would be regarded as a universal human right, from Afghanistan to Ashford.
I haven't talked to anyone "from the street". Looking back on my posts, I do realise that it sounds a bit wanky for me to say "yeah I know some Muslims", but its actually true. I've spoken in depth about this to a couple in Brum who are very good friends of mine and to a work colleague. To claim, like Morrismania was, that all Muslims pretty much think the same and to say "Not sure I'd want friends with views that Muslims are required to hold." is just plaing wrong. There are lots of different strands of thought within Islam. If I was to claim that all Christians were homophobic and believed the earth was only 4000 years old, I'd rightly get shot down in flames. It seems to be OK however for certain posters on here to insinuate that all Muslims think the same and that it is fundamentally a repressive religion. Its not*. Maybe people need to draw a distinction between Islam and Islamism.
[edit to add]
*well not anymore that any other religion
Yes so do I. But insinuating that Islam is fundamentally opposed to women's rights is just not true.
Are you insinuating that Islam fundamentally supports womens rights, including a womens right to have an abortion for example?
No I'm not.
And before anyone says it, the US doesnt, they firmly believe in the seperation of church and state there, and despite the protests of a very vocal fundementalist Christian minority, that seperation is upheld and believed in by the vast majority. THis includes the majority of opinion in the republican party.
take it from a guy who lives here, the Republican party most certainly doesn't believe in the separation of Church and State.
Islamic countries have religious laws in their countries because their culture makes no distinction between religion and government. I will be the first to admit that this certainly does have it's problems, but denouncing it as backward isn't a very open minded approach. Not that you are...are you?
Not to mention anal or oral sex, or homosexual acts.
You don't think religion has a bit to do not only with the existence of those laws in the first place, but with the fact that in the 21st century they still haven't been repelled?
For your reading pleasure:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1483705,00.html
Land of the Free eh?
"The State" IS a religion
Odd or heresy ?
If your friends tell you they aren’t required to hold certain beliefs – they’re either not Muslims or are lying to a typically gormless infidel dupe (as recommended by the Prophet pbuh).
Clue: it’s a religion – religions are defined by beliefs - Islam is particularly explicit about the unchanging nature of it’s revelation – modern trends cannot usurp the eternal and infallible teachings which Muslims are required to believe.
I won’t post links to the Quran, Hadiths or Islamic history to show that Muslims don’t have the same 'room for manoeuvre' as post-enlightenment Christians – it’s quite unnecessary, you’re not stupid or unaware – just chicken shit.
I don’t single out Islam btw - Judaism is also barbaric (arguably more repugnant given it’s exclusive ethno-supremacism). Christianity as a bastard child of Judaism is not for me either, although its ‘slave-mentality’ makes it a lesser moral hurdle for modern western minds (or do I misunderstand Nietzsche Blagsta? lol).
If your intention is to defend Muslims from persecution on account of their faith I’m well ahead of you - but we can defend the people and their religious freedom and still be honest about the ‘faith’. In fact freedom requires it, and I know how much you libertarian socialists value freedom.
You stated that you've only read books about it, that you have no Muslim friends.
Oh puhlease, stop writing blatant lies.
Utter utter bollocks. There are lots of different strands within Islam, it is open to interpretation. Do you think all Christian churches believe the same things?
You're so full of shit. As I said - please find out about a subject before posting embarrasing drivel. You seem to be confusing fundamentalist Islam and Islamism with Islam.
The point is that within all these religions you will find many many differing interpretations.
Quite probably. You do appear to have some fascist leanings.
My position is you for to be honest and not post outright fictions and lies.
There are different strands and some parts of Islam are open to interpretation - but not all obviously.
I'm not confusing fundamentalistIslam with mainstreamIslam - you're confusing unIslam with Islam.
What are my fascist leanings and what is fascism?
Show me the fiction and lies - just quote it - I'll support it with what I thought were unnecessary links.
Clue: it’s a religion – religions are defined by beliefs - Islam is particularly explicit about the unchanging nature of it’s revelation – modern trends cannot usurp the eternal and infallible teachings which Muslims are required to believe."
Which is it?
That was a remarkably calm and measured post Blagsta - well done!
There is no contradiction.
The parts of Islam which are open to interpretation are when the Quran, hadiths or historic beliefs of muslims internally contradict or are unclear. Where there is no contradiction or debate - Islamic doctrine is clear and Muslims are required to uphold these beliefs.
What are you talking about? Muslims are human beings who have choices to make, exactly the same as people born in cultures dominated by christianity, judaism or other faiths.
The generalisations you make mean nothing - because you've ignored the fact that each muslim is also an individual - and each individual deals with their culture differently.
Do you do everything that your culture requires of you?
More contradiction. You're basically saying that there is no room for interpretation apart from where there is room for interpretation. Make your mind up.
This is over. :wave:
Ducking out again I see. You're good at this debating lark aren't you?
Think about it - there are no cats here, there are cats there. No contradiction