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Mrs Moroccan Roll...?

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Luke, either respond to what people are saying, find another thread or get banned

    Come on, you think it's acceptable to just butt into a thread and start telling people to piss off?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Funny though how the vast majority of drugs workers, health professionals and top ranking police officers also want drugs legalised though innit?
    It's easy to see why the police would want drugs legalised. They don't worry about legal activities do they?

    And I'd side with the drugs workers and health professionals if I believed the solution to problem drug use was as simple as providing drugs to those who wanted them. Problem drug use is linked to social issues such that it makes it a more complex issue. We don't issue suicidal people with lethal injections because that would be a better way to go than throwing themselves under a Tube train.

    If drugs were freely available, we would have to accept that the government would be licencing the sale of substances harmful to health in a society which is becoming so anti-smoking and anti-binge drinking that it would make that position paradoxical.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It would only be paradoxical if the government were to ban alcohol and cigarettes. We're nowhere near that position and in fact alcohol is as celebrated and widely available as it can be possible, and the government is more than happy to take make fat money out of this and fags.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    It would only be paradoxical if the government were to ban alcohol and cigarettes. We're nowhere near that position and in fact alcohol is as celebrated and widely available as it can be possible, and the government is more than happy to take make fat money out of this and fags.
    ...whilst spending inordinate sums of money on smoking cessation.

    Bans on smoking already in most workplaces and public buildings, health warnings covering half the packets, above inflation tax increases, bans on certain advertisements etc. Yes they get a lot of tax off smokers, but you can hardly say that they encourage smoking.

    Alcohol again is becoming the subject of the government's wrath with its health and social consequences.

    You don't necessarily have to ban them to show your disapproval. It would not be practicable to ban them outright, but both are being brought to public attention more than ever before.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    And I'd side with the drugs workers and health professionals if I believed the solution to problem drug use was as simple as providing drugs to those who wanted them. Problem drug use is linked to social issues such that it makes it a more complex issue. We don't issue suicidal people with lethal injections because that would be a better way to go than throwing themselves under a Tube train.

    Its about a balance of harm though, a heroin addict needs heroin, is it better for him/her to get it from her GP or from her dealer?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    ...whilst spending inordinate sums of money on smoking cessation.

    Bans on smoking already in most workplaces and public buildings, health warnings covering half the packets, above inflation tax increases, bans on certain advertisements etc. Yes they get a lot of tax off smokers, but you can hardly say that they encourage smoking.

    Alcohol again is becoming the subject of the government's wrath with its health and social consequences.

    You don't necessarily have to ban them to show your disapproval. It would not be practicable to ban them outright, but both are being brought to public attention more than ever before.
    But couldn't they take the same approach to cannabis as they do to tobacco products? I wouldn't expect the government to 'promote' its use anyway. Just treat it as a licensed product to be sold at special stockists.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    But couldn't they take the same approach to cannabis as they do to tobacco products? I wouldn't expect the government to 'promote' its use anyway. Just treat it as a licensed product to be sold at special stockists.
    Making something currently illegal legal is promoting its use in my view. It denies the potential harm and justifies its use.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    Its about a balance of harm though, a heroin addict needs heroin, is it better for him/her to get it from her GP or from her dealer?
    Indeed, and this is where I find common ground with the pro-legalisation brigade.

    But I dispute the assertion that a "heroin addict needs heroin". And now again we're getting to the difference between prescribing heroin as a form of rehab or maintenance, and blanket legalisation of drugs on the grounds of civil liberties.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    Making something currently illegal legal is promoting its use in my view. It denies the potential harm and justifies its use.
    Presumably keeping a proven lethal and highly damaging substance legalised is also promoting its use then?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Presumably keeping a proven lethal and highly damaging substance legalised is also promoting its use then?
    Which?

    It would be impractical to ban alcohol and tobacco.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    But I dispute the assertion that a "heroin addict needs heroin". And now again we're getting to the difference between prescribing heroin as a form of rehab or maintenance, and blanket legalisation of drugs on the grounds of civil liberties.

    I can see your point, why should the NHS pay for maintenance heroin if the person has no intentions of giving up. Its a dodgy moral question really, but again I look at it on the balance of harm, its not a great thing, but its better than the other option.

    I'm not for the blanket legalisation of drugs by the way.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    Which?

    It would be impractical to ban alcohol and tobacco.
    Both alcohol and cigarettes.

    It would not be impractical- it would be an election loser. That is what this or any other government past or future cares about, and why it will not be banned.

    And also because many MPs tend to be amongst the biggest pissheads in the land, of course. Perish the thought of banning something they enjoy.

    But it could be banned without that much problem if they really wanted to- just as other things have been banned over the years.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    pretty obvious noones gonna back down, all i can say is it has to be one of the safest drugs on the planet, legal or illegal........c'mon 0 deaths, and the mental health risk is not strictly proven e.g. ratio of users with problems, i have met hundreds of stoners and never personally encountered someone with serious problems, other than an empty bank account........so why the inherent bias?

    btw kentish marijuana use over here is already a LOT more widespread than you prolly imagine, so where are all these people with problems?.........why isn't it reported in the news? we hear all the time about alcohol and fag-related problems, and they jump at the chance to demonise ecstasy e.g. leah betts............why would it be any different if it was legalised, cannabis use has actually decreased in amsterdam since decriminalisation (not counting the tourists obviously).........your argument does not counter or address these issues.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    It would not be impractical
    With a pub or off licence on every street corner, I beg to differ.
    other things have been banned over the years.
    Is there really a precedent?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:

    But it could be banned without that much problem if they really wanted to- just as other things have been banned over the years.
    yeah ...like fox hunting.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    apollo_69 wrote:
    your argument does not counter or address these issues.
    One person dying or suffering adverse effects for no justifiable benefit is enough for it to remain illegal. It doesn't matter whether it causes fewer deaths than alcohol or tobacco. That is a red herring you love to use to confuse the issue, but that's not the point.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    With a pub or off licence on every street corner, I beg to differ.
    If they really wanted to, they'd do it. No question about that. Serve notice to all public houses, give them 6 months to acomodate and sell something else (or close shop altogether), and that's it.
    Is there really a precedent?
    Not on that scale. But as MR has pointed out, they're already doing it with well established institutions such as fox hunting and hunts. They'd be a lot of resistance to a ban from those who profit from selling alcohol, but technically and logistically it could be done without that much trouble.

    As I said, the only reason it doesn't get done (if the government really cared about harmful substances having a negative effect on society, that is) it's because it'd lose them an election and because MPs are the biggest users of the substance.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    chasing rabbits ...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's as may be. It doesn't change the fact that cannabis is currently illegal.

    If you are arguing for the criminalisation of alcohol sale and supply, and the legalisation of cannabis then there is a paradox.

    If you are arguing for the legalisation of cannabis on the basis that alcohol is worse, then your argument is self-defeating.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Perhaps, but so is your argument that cannabis should remain illegal because it is potentially harmful.

    If that is the case, it should be the duty of the government to protect us from ALL harmful substances, regardless of whether they're currently legalised or not.

    Opium used to be legal. Presumably they shouldn't have made it illegal...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    But the stimulants are self re-enforcing in their addiction, the tendancy is to take more and more. If they were available easier and cheaper use (for some) would go up and up.

    yea but unlike alcohol, stimulants will eventually take it's toll and you'll quit on your own accord, you get physically addicted to alcohol, two different things altogether.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Perhaps, but so is your argument that cannabis should remain illegal because it is potentially harmful.

    If that is the case, it should be the duty of the government to protect us from ALL harmful substances, regardless of whether they're currently legalised or not.

    Opium used to be legal. Presumably they shouldn't have made it illegal...

    :D i think you cornered him there
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    yea but unlike alcohol, stimulants will eventually take it's toll and you'll quit on your own accord, you get physically addicted to alcohol, two different things altogether.
    i was highly addicted to ampheatamine for a number of years.
    i still cannot work it out ...at the end of the day ...it's addiction.
    most move on and do pack it in but ...you'll always have a hardcore who will use it forever.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    ...whilst spending inordinate sums of money on smoking cessation.

    Bans on smoking already in most workplaces and public buildings, health warnings covering half the packets, above inflation tax increases, bans on certain advertisements etc. Yes they get a lot of tax off smokers, but you can hardly say that they encourage smoking.

    Alcohol again is becoming the subject of the government's wrath with its health and social consequences.

    You don't necessarily have to ban them to show your disapproval. It would not be practicable to ban them outright, but both are being brought to public attention more than ever before.

    have you personally got anything to lose if cannabis is legalised, seriously though, i know you might think so but you don't have everyone's best interests at heart, just because you believe that everyone should be healthy and because you personally find solice in health, doesn't mean we or anyone else does, there's something really dictorial aobut your thesis, i've mentioned choice before, we have the choice to do what we want, if we die x amount of years younger because of smoking then thats our loss, not yours. get it now......
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Perhaps, but so is your argument that cannabis should remain illegal because it is potentially harmful.

    If that is the case, it should be the duty of the government to protect us from ALL harmful substances, regardless of whether they're currently legalised or not.
    Indeed. Hence the promotion of smoking cessation and sensible drinking limits. I'm not sure how much you reasonably expect the government to do.
    Opium used to be legal. Presumably they shouldn't have made it illegal...
    Maybe. But I don't see how that's relevant here.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    By your argument Kentish, rock climbing, motor racing, cycling, sailing etc should all be banned too.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    get it now......
    I understand the argument. But somewhere along the line you'd expect the NHS or the social services to pick up the pieces.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    By your argument Kentish, rock climbing, motor racing, cycling, sailing etc should all be banned too.
    I'm not arguing for the banning of alcohol!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    I understand the argument. But somewhere along the line you'd expect the NHS or the social services to pick up the pieces.
    you make it sound like all the china in the shop is going to get broken.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i was highly addicted to ampheatamine for a number of years.
    i still cannot work it out ...at the end of the day ...it's addiction.
    most move on and do pack it in but ...you'll always have a hardcore who will use it forever.

    you on about speed yea?, i know it gets to a point where you need it but you don't need need it if you know what i mean, i'm sure there are hardcore users who do it all their lives but again thats their choice, deep down they don't actually want to quit it, most reach a certain stage in their lives where they decide that although the drug has a hold, you need to let go, alcohol and heroin isn't like this imo.
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