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Ken Livingstone accused of anti-semitism

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Read post 2 by "Madge" and see if you think that all the information contained in it is relevant to a thread about Livingstone and anti-semitism.....

    Neither was your previous comments, if anything Mdage's was a response in defence of what you had typed.
    Now, I'm sure some of you would love to know what dirt "Madge" has

    Not at all. Unless they will show you to be against the basic rules of these boards - as has happened with the likes of Steelgate, I really couldn't care less what they have to say about you Peeps.
    This isn't "politics and debate", its a personalised attack and its gone far enough already.

    Actually the only presonalised attack has been yours.

    However, in your position I would also be concered - although my name isn't unusual on the 'net - however, it is wrong to attack them publically without provocation. And that user name isn't enough really. If anything the first post was more than relevant to the thread. Your response changed that.

    If you are concerned about motive then refer them to the mods and let them decide. They have the power here...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Actually the only presonalised attack has been yours.

    Hurrah!!!! A personalised attack against an anonymous lickspittle.

    :rolleyes:

    Post 1 - I said there was an agenda.

    Post 2 - it showed.

    I get the feeling that if it was one of your righty mates your approach would be less cavalier. However, it isn't actually a left/right issue ....

    Indeed the mods will end up having to make a decision, but I aint playing passive victim whilst that happens........
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hurrah!!!! A personalised attack against an anonymous lickspittle.

    Erm... Wasn't it you who was bemoaning the personal attack issue?
    Post 1 - I said there was an agenda.

    Post 2 - it showed.

    Conveniently missing out the post in the middle when you made the personal connection. You should have just responded to the points made - which you still haven't BTW.


    Or is a pre-emptive strike acceptable these days?
    I get the feeling that if it was one of your righty mates your approach would be less cavalier. However, it isn't actually a left/right issue ....

    Nah. Until Madge does something wrong, or types something stupid, I will give them the benefit of doubt.

    When the line is crossed I would defend you as much as anyone else. As you say this isn't a left/right issue. Although you and I don't see eye-to-eye on many issues, personal attacks and "stalking" are not acceptable. Like I said, no one likes a troll...

    Besides, your reactions to that first post has now made this thread about the relatioship between the pair of you.

    Why not leave your comments just to those about Ken and ignore the rest?

    BTW Given your comment about "if this was your righty mates", you've obviously never heard of Man Of Kunt... he used to frequent this place...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why not leave your comments just to those about Ken and ignore the rest?
    .

    Just like you're doing?

    I think you'll find I'm responding to the points you made.....
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just like you're doing?

    I think you'll find I'm responding to the points you made.....

    Fair point.

    Would it help if I made Madge's point then?

    - embracing and defending a cleric who is the religious legitimator of suicide bombing;
    - producing a partial and distorted defence of that's clerics views;
    - characterising celebrated human rights campaigner (and supporter of an independent Palestine), Peter Tatchell as a dupe of a Mossad plot;
    - demuring when a Saudi journalist asked him a question about the jews who the journalist believes control the media, and mentioning the jewish wife of a disgraced press tycoon as if it were an example of that conspiracy at work.

    What is more important, being an arch-apologist Livingstone stooge, or condemning a politician who was voted for and is paid by londoners?

    How does what associated execs did 13 years excuse Livingstones comments to a jewish journalist now?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fair point.

    Would it help if I made Madge's point then?

    Nope....
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nope....

    So you don't want to have a discussion/debate then?

    Obviously you were right when you said "This isn't "politics and debate", " because clearly it should all be about "your toys and your pram"...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So you don't want to have a discussion/debate then?

    Obviously you were right when you said "This isn't "politics and debate", " because clearly it should all be about "your toys and your pram"...

    No, I'm not prepared to have a "debate" with someone using a user name of mine, and following me arounf thye internet.

    So - your idea is - "Madge" asks, you c+p the "Madge" question - I answer you, "Madge" responds, you c+p "Madge"s response ....

    That isn't debate honey, its childish games.

    It kinda negates the purpose of the ignore function, no?

    In the meantime, when "Madge" continues with whatever "Madge" seeks to do, nobody is going to be very surprised, are they?

    Any idea why I picked the name "Madge Noon" ?

    :confused:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, I'm not prepared to have a "debate" with someone using a user name of mine

    Erm, you aren't. It's with me. Haven't seen Madge for a few hours, have we?
    So - your idea is - "Madge" asks, you c+p the "Madge" question - I answer you, "Madge" responds, you c+p "Madge"s response ....

    Nope, but I thought that you might like to respond to the valid points. Or are you going to ignore anything which doesn't support your view point. For all you know Madge could PM me with a question to ask...
    That isn't debate honey, its childish games.

    You're right, you are being childish.
    Any idea why I picked the name "Madge Noon" ?

    Not really. But then I would have to care too.

    Anyway, I thought you wanted this to be about Ken, not you?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I like the name Madge Noon. If ftp wants me to change it, he can PM me and ask me to change it. I don't want to cause personal discomfort for ftp. I would like to thank the moderator for being fair, and looking at my posts on this site, which have been free from direct personal attacks.
    Now, I'm sure some of you would love to know what dirt "Madge" has to dish, but for one minute put yourself in the position where someone takes a name you use elsewhere, and starts dishing out their version of a story whilst basking in anonymity.

    You bask in anonymity too, ftp. I haven't dished out any version of any story, what are you talking about?

    I think its time that ftp started responding to the points about Livingstone, however. I hope that it doesn't cause personal discomfort.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Erm, MoK, when have I ever refused to engage with ideas that don't mirro my own. "Madge" didn't come here to have a debate really, and your attempting to engage me with him/her isn't dealing with that fact at all.....

    What did you make of Livingstone's rebuttal of the "London Coalitions" claims?


    :confused:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Madge Noon wrote:
    I like the name Madge Noon. If ftp wants me to change it, he can PM me and ask me to change it. .

    Erm, I'm about as likely to do that as "Madge" is to PM and disclose it's own identity....
    If the poster desires a discussion on the matters raised in the post, I suggest that they refrain from making it personal, and reregister with a name that isn't directly linked to me.

    Post 207 came a whole 16 posts before post 223 by my calculations......
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Madge Noon wrote:
    If ftp wants me to change it, he can PM me and ask me to change it.

    I think that Peeps made his opinion very clear some time ago.

    Delays by you just prove his point. The tolerance threshold for you is going to be very low, you know.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Erm, MoK, when have I ever refused to engage with ideas that don't mirro my own. "Madge" didn't come here to have a debate really, and your attempting to engage me with him/her isn't dealing with that fact at all...

    Nottrying to get you to engage with Madge, trying to get you to engage with the thread about Ken... and to ignore Madge's post. Except that there were valid points originally and you ignoring them doesn't help...
    What did you make of Livingstone's rebuttal of the "London Coalitions" claims?

    Now that I've lost track, can you point me in the right direction...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Now that I've lost track, can you point me in the right direction...

    Try his website ;)

    Its rather essential reading when considering the question of Livingstone and Al-Qaradawi.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Congratulations. You win this weeks "Moronic Post" award.

    What has the UK Jewish Community ever done to the Palestinians?
    Where does it say UK? Try the massive funding sent by UK and US jewish communities to Israel a few years back, or does your memory not go back that far?
    How can any anti jewish comment be racist? what crap.
    A spat between a journo and a minor politician and the whole board of deputies want to get involved, obviously nothing very important happening elsewhere.
    Does the above award have any monetary value as I would like to buy some football shares.
    I am not anti jewish or racist or any of the other foul libels put about here.
    I just love blue paper and matches. :thumb:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Linstock wrote:
    How can any anti jewish comment be racist? what crap.

    Fuck off and throw yourself under a bus, plskthnx :thumb:

    As for your question, calling someone a yid cunt is racist.

    What is it with this board and all the racist trolls? So many morons, not enough bullets...

    ETA: if anyone should be banned, it should be freethemoron.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ahh back from holiday

    I only intend to judge people for what they say here, not for what they are being accused of. No one has any rights to a username and enless someone is breaking the rules there is nothing else to be done.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Livingstone writes about the issue in the Guardian.
    Today the Israeli government is helping to promote a wholly distorted picture of racism and religious discrimination in Europe, implying that the most serious upsurge of hatred and discrimination is against Jews.

    All racist and anti-semitic attacks must be stamped out. However, the reality is that the great bulk of racist attacks in Europe today are on black people, Asians and Muslims - and they are the primary targets of the extreme right. For 20 years Israeli governments have attempted to portray anyone who forcefully criticises the policies of Israel as anti-semitic. The truth is the opposite: the same universal human values that recognise the Holocaust as the greatest racist crime of the 20th century require condemnation of the policies of successive Israeli governments - not on the absurd grounds that they are Nazi or equivalent to the Holocaust, but because ethnic cleansing, discrimination and terror are immoral.

    They are also fuelling anger and violence across the world. For a mayor of London not to speak out against such injustice would not only be wrong - but would also ignore the threat it poses to the security of all Londoners.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Livingstone writes about the issue in the Guardian.

    Ken’s opinions on anti-Semitism and homophobia are worthless. It amazes me that Ken claims to be a friend of the gays and lesbians when he gratefully accepts support from groups such as this See also here

    I'm not surprised though. To Ken and Labour keeping the Muslim vote is so important they couldn't care about pissing off gays and lesbians. See the latest snub from Labour. Same story it seems for Jews, see here an article by Rod Liddle. He makes some true and very worthwhile points.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Doesn't that run completely counter to why he got in the arguement? That he was arguing because the reporter was trying to dig up dirt on the people attending Chris Smith's party at a gay club.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    Doesn't that run completely counter to why he got in the arguement? That he was arguing because the reporter was trying to dig up dirt on the people attending Chris Smith's party at a gay club.

    I guess it does. But then Ken doesn't know that the reporter was necessarily there for those reasons. He just lost his temper, made a scene and embarrassed himself...

    And even if it does given the groups and people Ken seems to like to associate with questions have got to be asked. If a Tory Mayor had say welcomed a homophobic Christian preacher from Texas I'm sure there would have been plenty of outrage. And I doubt Ken would have welcomed such a character...So why should he welcome someone else with similar homophobic views? :confused:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ken’s opinions on anti-Semitism ...... are worthless.

    I would say that, in light of him standing accused of an anti-semitic comment, they are highly relevant to the topic of this thread.

    This isn't about homophobia at all, is it? It's about the comments that he made to Oliver Finegold outside City Hall, and whether they show Ken as anti-semitic.

    The letter he sent looks as if it was a standard response to correspondence, but regardless of that, the issue is whether his statement was anti-semitic, or whether in fact it is an excuse to attack him because of his erm, "links" to Al Qaradawi.

    Al Qaradawi was referred to the Met for hate-speech by the Board of Deputies in July last year - and the met found no grounds to proceed. So, its being played out in other ways.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hell I could very well be wrong on this but the reports I read implied that he accused the reporter of just following orders because he knew the reporter was quite liberal, yet he was just obeying the orders to dig up homophobic dirt.

    I mean, you don't accuse people of just following orders because you lose your rag do you? Wouldn't you be much more likely to just call them a cunt and hit them.

    But again, your evidence does seem to run counter to this.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My mistake, the event was at City Hall.

    Anyway Outrage's view

    http://www.redglobe.de/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3886
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    My mistake, the event was at City Hall.

    Anyway Outrage's view

    http://www.redglobe.de/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3886

    Thanks for the link, interesting. Cheers. :)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    homophobia and religion .........
    And even if it does given the groups and people Ken seems to like to associate with questions have got to be asked. If a Tory Mayor had say welcomed a homophobic Christian preacher from Texas I'm sure there would have been plenty of outrage. And I doubt Ken would have welcomed such a character...So why should he welcome someone else with similar homophobic views?

    As well as distancing himself from Qaradawi's views on homosexuality - "I do not agree with him", Livingstone, in his dossier reflects on religion and homophobia. In particular he refers to Chief Rabbi Jonathon Sacks .......
    While it is true that Dr al-Qaradawi says that
    homosexuality should be discouraged, this
    view is shared by many, probably most,
    representatives of the world’s major religions.
    The Jewish Torah and the Old Testament
    specify that the penalty for homosexual acts
    should be death: ‘If a man lies with a male as
    with a woman, both of them have committed
    an abomination; they shall surely be put to
    death; their blood is upon them.’ (Leviticus,
    20:13) This does not mean that every Jewish
    or Christian leader shares this view.
    The abolition of Section 28 was opposed by
    leading Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims
    and Sikhs. For example the Chief Rabbi, Dr
    Jonathan Sacks, was quoted as saying that
    ‘in Judaism homosexuality is forbidden’,
    adding that abolition of Section 28 would
    ‘lead to the promotion of a homosexual
    lifestyle as morally equivalent to marriage’
    and ‘frustrate any attempt to educate
    children in the importance of marriage as the
    basis of a stable and caring society’.58
    Perhaps the authors of the dossier believe
    that Dr Sacks should be excluded from City
    Hall along with Dr al-Qaradawi?

    We're seeing a schism in the Anglican church over the issue of homosexuality, its part of what religion does ...... homophobia as a tool of social control.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As well as distancing himself from Qaradawi's views on homosexuality - "I do not agree with him", Livingstone, in his dossier reflects on religion and homophobia.

    Outrage don't agree...

    http://outrage.nabumedia.com/mayorsdossier-thetruth.doc

    And somehow I don't think Outrage are making a fuss over nothing. They're claims seem pretty genuine and justified to me.

    In particular he refers to Chief Rabbi Jonathon Sacks .......

    We're seeing a schism in the Anglican church over the issue of homosexuality, its part of what religion does ...... homophobia as a tool of social control.

    What’s Jonathan Sacks got to do with this? Anyway Sacks is Chief Rabbi of the United movement. There are various movements in Judaism in Britain; the main three being United, Reform and Liberal. United is a modern Orthodox movement really. Liberal and Reform agree on most things but they both disagree with United on a couple of big issues.

    Anyway Reform/Liberal movements especially in America have had a long history of supporting gay rights.

    Fairly recently both movements have allowed same-sex unions.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/696074.stm
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/gayrights/story/0,12592,1425915,00.html
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ken’s opinions on anti-Semitism and homophobia are worthless. It amazes me that Ken claims to be a friend of the gays and lesbians when he gratefully accepts support from groups such as this See also here

    I'm not surprised though. To Ken and Labour keeping the Muslim vote is so important they couldn't care about pissing off gays and lesbians. See the latest snub from Labour. Same story it seems for Jews, see here an article by Rod Liddle. He makes some true and very worthwhile points.

    Have to say I was disappointed with the Rod Liddle article, what a load of crap from someone who usually does so much better.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    BlackArab wrote:
    Have to say I was disappointed with the Rod Liddle article, what a load of crap from someone who usually does so much better.

    The point he's trying to make does seem quite controversial, I guess that's typical for the Spectator though. But I think he's right, Labour are desperate to cling on to the Muslim vote. And to try and win back Muslim support lost from the Iraq war it seems Labour will do things that will disillusion other groups.

    Not really surprising that Labour see the Muslim vote as being so important when as he points out in the article that 20 parliamentary seats could change if Labour doesn't win back support from the Muslim community.
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