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And what a great message it sends to other criminals. Break into homes because now people will be afraid to defend themselves at all.
My view is that burglers immediately lose their vaunted 'rights' as soon as they illegally gain entry into another persons home. The notion of the burgler sueing the victim is prepostrous :no:
He couldnt even get a licence for an ordinary shotgun because the police thought he was a danger to himself and others.
Whatever you think of this case he is a child killer.
I'm shocked at how many of you believe that as soon as someone comes on your land you can do "anything" to protect your property.
So if someone cuts accross your farm land on their way home you can tie them up in your basment and torture them for years on end?
Thats crazy. I aggree that people who break into your house give up some rights but I really dont see how you can justify cold blooded murder, your basicly saying that the death penalty is justified for breaking and entering.
Perhaps insted of turning the public into violent vigalanties we should try and solve some of the social problems that lead young adults to enter a life of crime. This kind of talk is a very small step from mob justice.
He mugged someone! Lets linch him! Get your pitch forks!
what realy gets up my nose is none of you have a fucking clue how shit scared and irrational you'll bne if it happens to you. have you met any creepers ...they'd be laughing their fucking heads off at you 'nice' folk. you soft targets. get fucking real and lets FIGHT crime and criminals.
So you feel people should not be punished for breaking the law?
Of course I dont believe criminals shouldnt be punished, but I was just suggesting that the criminal justice system is the best option rather than mob justice.
Ahem...He had an unlicenced gun..he killed a CHILD for gods sake. A CHILD!
from what I've read about Mr Martin he has no feelings of remorse about taking the life of another person! I think that is a bit odd. Infact he was more worried about himself and being in prison than he was about the death of another person.
He claims he had an un-loaded gun, this means he took the time to find the gun (Which he says he wasn't sure where it was) find the bullets, load the gun, move to the top of a staircase and shoot someone in the back.
Whatever your feelings about people who comit a crime, surely you can see that what this man did was not only wrong but to some extent he did it with precision and thought...ie he has time to stop and think about what he was doing and yet he still carried on loading that gun and KILLED A CHILD.
yes the child was commiting a crime, but he did not need to shoot the CHILD!!
Why is the fact that it was a 'child' relevant?
What about the numerous cases in the US, where burglars have injured themselves and then successfully sued the homeowner?
There was one major case where a burglar fell through a sky-light and landed on a large knife. He won significant damages.
this is terrorism of a sort ...your naked ...vulnerable like never before ...the guy punches you in the face and hurls you physicaly across the room ...
and your thinking ...of course this guys got rights ...like the right to be doing this to me in my home in the middle of the night ...it's his trade his job ...
more like you'll be wishing you had some way out of the hell you have suddenly been thrust into ...if only you had a gun ...
blood is dripping from the corner of your mouth and he hits you again and starts threatening with the blade ...
get fucking real ...no one has any right to behave like this toward you ...they have no fucking rights at all ...they gave up civilised rights the moment they entered your home ...16 or fucking 60 they do not have the right to be violating you like this.
the modern world aye ...for the first time in history people are saying that this kind of behaviour should be understood more and of course these people shouldn't loose their rights ....
i find that very very sad ...
i've got to go but i'll try and post the accounts later.
So im in my house, its late on a night and I hear someone in my house may I ask what you want me to do?
I dont know who it is, what they want or what they will do to me if i dont let them have what they have come for. They may want to rape me, burgle my house, murder me............I dont know !!!!
Bear in mind im shitting myself being startled in my own house by a stranger, im more afraid than the person whose broke in.
So you expect me to just say *hi* having a nice day are we :rolleyes:
Your having a laugh mate if you think im gonna welcome an uninvited guest on my property, especially on a night :rolleyes:
The fact is that he defended himself against a child with an illegal weapon despite having ample time to think about the consequences of firing a bullet that could potentially kill another human being. so surely he did something wrong and he should have been punished and he should at least show some remorse for taking a life.
I think the fact that the victim (And dying from a gunshot wound makes you a victim regardless of the fact that you are a burglar) was a child, is relevant because so many times on these boards people have stressed the difference between acts of violence against children and adults.
Killing someone is a very extreme reaction and the statements mr martin has made since do nothing to convince me otherwise.
My dad lived in a rural area and was very worried about potential threats to his safety as a lone resident in a remote farm, particularly as there were many cases of elderly people being attacked in their homes, but he would not have kept a killing weapon illegally in his house - because there would always be the possibility that someone may be fatally wounded.
The point is that if you kill someone defending yourself you have to be dealt with by the courts for your crime and accept the consequences of your actions. Mr Martin seems unable to accept the fact that he did kill someones child. Its almost as if he finds it disgraceful that the legal system didn't just pat him on the back and tell him not to do it again!
Its late on a night, I hear a noise in my property and I dont know who it is apart from its an unwanted visitor I ask again what would you want me to do?
At this time I dont know its a kid, I dont know anything apart from im shit scared. If I was in the same situation as he was id do the same myself and protect myself and my property (although I dont own a gun). Which means if I grabbed a walking stick and clobbered him with it and he sustained head injuries and later died then id be up for the same crime. The thought of killing someone would never enter my mind, all I would be thinking about at that time was im not going to let anyone mug or rape me !!!
Why? Because children are more 'innocent'...:rolleyes:
So...you don't own a gun? Is that because you don't want a gun in the house or because you legally cannot get a gun?
The fact is that Mr Martin should not have had that gun...yes?
If you clobbered an intruder with a walking stick you would still have to prove in a court of law that you were acting in self defence and that you reacted to the situation. Mr Martins conviction was certainly based upon the fact that he used an illegal weapon and that his use of the weapon was inappropriate...he shot a child in the back from the top of the stairs as the burgler was running from the property!!!!!
Unfortunately for him (I guess) there was not enough evidence to prove that he was reacting to a personal attack. he told the police that he would shoot the next robber that came onto his property.
Some of the posts on this thread seem to be suggesting that we should all be allowed to keep a gun by our beds just incase someone breaks in...the law in this country does not allow that. And...all the arguments about farmers having guns don't hold water in this particular case because mr martin did not have a licence for the gun he shot the intruder with! Thats the law, ...if you want one law for 'good' people and another law for 'bad' people then we will be living in a facist state!
burglars rights? how the fuck can a shadowy figure at the end of your bed have any fucking rights? he didn't have 'ANY RIGHT' ...TO BE ENTERING YOUR PROPERTY ...SO THE LAW SHOULD STATE THAT YOU HAVE VOLUNTARILY GIVEN UP 'ANY RIGHT'. oops caps.
my rural and peaceful area in north wales in the last twelve months.
a 'child' ...child of 17 ...broke into an old ladies house on the island of anglesey. he raped and battered an old lady ...didn't steal anything ...didn't go with the intention of stealing anything.
he did manage to accomplish what he went for though.
he cut her heart out and left it on the rug by the fire with two crossed knives. he was interested first ...in buffy the vampire slayer ...his interest in vampires and stuff just grew from there.
horror movies are never a p[atch on reality. the reality is we have vampires etc on our streets ...at least in their own heads ...but in our streets and ...in our houses.
what made it close to home for me more than anything was the fact that i had met his father about a hundred tyimes. his dad was a very gentle and talented man who suffered from severe depression. i knew him as the very talented stone mason and builder that he was. he comitted suicide a couple of years before his son did this awful dead. i had the privaledge of haVING his dad do some work for me and of being taken on a tour of the fantastic house he had built for his family ...very artistic.
the second story is of an old lady who lived about three miles from me. knew nothing of her but ...her killer used to regularly stagger past my home pissed out of his mind at the weekends.her killer had no previous apart from drunkeness. good worker etc. lots of being drunk charges though.
in court it was stated that in our local night club ...he had been turned down to many times by the girls and he snapped.
he broke into this old ladies house ...in the centre of a village with houses all around, and repeatedly raped and battered her through a long night. as the alcohol started to wear off he panicked and set fire to her .................
she was found naked in the street charred but still alive muttering for jesus to help her. she died before they got her to hospital.
the sad thing was her grandson had been staying with her and had only returned to duty with the marines a few days before ......
had this fucking animal broken into her house when the grandson had been there, the old lady would have still been alive but ...theres every chance the burglar could have been fataly injured and ...you lot would be calling HIM a murderer.
the burglar was a skinny wimp of a nineteen year old.
the law should state that you have no fucking right to break into my grandmas house. the fact that you don't have that right means ...if you do ...you no longer have any rights whilst committing your crime. its simple realy.
no vigilantes. no fascism. you just don't have the fucking right.
and 16yr old burglars can't hide behind being 'children' when they are hardened experienced criminals living in a tough mans world.
the fact is that if it was my house like many other people we would not want to kill, that would be the last thing on our mind. If I hit someone for coming into my property it would be because of fear not to kill.
you havent answered my question put to you earlier. What are you going to do if an uninvited guest decides to come into your house at lets say 2 am ?
I wouldnt own a gun end of story.
So for example if a old lady is confronted by two huge burly men then she would be able to take more drastic measures than Tony Martin, a large man against a small teenager.
This country really isnt the crime hot spot with a murderer on every street you seem to think it is, the fear of crime is WAY higher than any statistics.
Like so many people on here have said, i would do anything i could to protect my property and if i had a family id do everything in my power to stop that person. If that meant i killed someone well so be it. Im selfish when it comes to my property and family. Isthat so wrong? the person in the wrong is the intruder lets not forget that.
Ok it sucked that the kid got killed but it was his fault and Fearons for taking Barras along with him.
I have no sympathy for either of them. I always thought Fred Barass got shot while he was in the house while Martin was on the stairs but then he managed to get out of the house and died a bit later.
In the eyes of the law what martin did was wrong, its wrong to kill people but i would have done the same as would many others.
Why should he show any remorse? why do some of the people on here fells that he has a duty to say sorry. I bet he's sorry he didnt kill the other one too. I would be.
Maybe i'm hard hearted but burglars are scum, its a heinous crime. One of the worst.
YUP...IF in the confusion and fear, that's why the law is as it is...because they have to prove that someone was killed in the confusion and fear...and that the killer had little choice!
This does not translate as everyone who is a homeowner has the right to kill someone they find on their property.
At least we agree on something
Thats exactly what I said, 'reasonable force' but the farmer in question did not use reasonable force, thus it was murder.
i cannot bring myself to support the burghlar.
but if a criminal behaviour of someone turns you into a criminal where does that leave you and who is the victim?
The bottom line is: Martin was convicted of murder because the jury found him guilty of murdering, i.e. killing the burglar purposely and without reason. He was aware the burglar was running away, he was aware he was not in danger from the burglar at that point in time, and yet he took aim and shot him in the back as he was trying to leg it.
I hear what people are saying about the law being on the side of the home owner in situations when an accidental death could have been caused. This was not the case.
What disturbs me is that some people seem to suggest anyone who breaks and enters deserves to be murdered, and the murderer should not be punished for it.
Hell, even the Saudis draw the line at chopping their fucking hand off!