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burglers' rights

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
sorry if this has been done before but have just been arguing about this with some people in the pub and the only response i could get from them was "c'est la vie"

if someone breaks into your home and hurts themself is it your fault? is it right that a burlger has the right to sue you for tripping over your stairs?

in my view, anyone who walks onto another persons property without permission should lose all their rights. but the current system here doesn't agree with that. why?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A person who violates the property rights of others should not expect their rights to be upheld. Ultimately the property owner should use any means at their disposal to protect their property.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by monocrat
    A person who violates the property rights of others should not expect their rights to be upheld. Ultimately the property owner should use any means at their disposal to protect their property.
    but mono ...last week you didn't believe in the right to own property, so what if the burglar has similar beliefs to you?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If a burgler trips and hurts himself and then gets caught then so be it but if the homeowner shoots the burgler or beats him/her to a pulp then the homeowner is guilty of a crime too. Its just a shame that so far the farmer who shot and killed a person has shown no remorse for taking a life.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by morrocan roll
    but mono ...last week you didn't believe in the right to own property, so what if the burglar has similar beliefs to you?

    I never stated that.

    We don't live in an anarchist or Marxist society, so private property exists. A person then has the right to defend it as s/he chooses.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by byny
    If a burgler trips and hurts himself and then gets caught then so be it but if the homeowner shoots the burgler or beats him/her to a pulp then the homeowner is guilty of a crime too. Its just a shame that so far the farmer who shot and killed a person has shown no remorse for taking a life.

    yes he was a bit of a nutter and he committed a crime, but would he have committed that crime if the laws had been less lenient?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by byny
    If a burgler trips and hurts himself and then gets caught then so be it but if the homeowner shoots the burgler or beats him/her to a pulp then the homeowner is guilty of a crime too. Its just a shame that so far the farmer who shot and killed a person has shown no remorse for taking a life.
    byby most burglaries are comitted whie the ocupier is in. if anyone enters my house ilegaly then they are hopefuly going to get seriously hurt and not my wife and daughter, or myself come to it. if a guy comes in when he knows your home the chances are he is going to hurt you, probably come prepared to hurt you as he is desperate, he has to escape and preferably with some loot.
    i will not be interveiwing the guy as to what he's carrying and if his intentions are to hurt anyone. i will attack. no good standing there threatening them while you walk backwards in abject terror.
    you will loose. i'll attack first as i believe that gives me the best chance of survival, the best chance of protecting my family.
    if it is clearly a young helpless looking kid i might hesitate and demand he leaves but ...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its just a shame that so far the farmer who shot and killed a person has shown no remorse for taking a life.

    that burgular broke into his house, he felt threatened, he had a gun at hand, he shot...im pretty sure in prison he felt terrible about it at one point but has come to accept it now.

    As for the question, if a burgular breaks into your house then all his rights are left at the door, i believe a person has the right to attack the burgular at all means neccessary, why shouldn't they? don't give any of that bullshit that they are humans and deserve their respect for their life, no they don't, i might not go with the intent of ending their life there and then but would intend to seriously hurt them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Shogun
    that burgular broke into his house, he felt threatened, he had a gun at hand, he shot...im pretty sure in prison he felt terrible about it at one point but has come to accept it now.

    As for the question, if a burgular breaks into your house then all his rights are left at the door, i believe a person has the right to attack the burgular at all means neccessary, why shouldn't they? don't give any of that bullshit that they are humans and deserve their respect for their life, no they don't, i might not go with the intent of ending their life there and then but would intend to seriously hurt them.

    exactly. if the burgler loses all his rights as soon as s/he steps onto your property then questions about his/her motives and intentions don't come into play.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i've been to jail and met burglars who do houses while the occupants are in. it's known as 'creeping'. most creepers are prepared to hurt you.
    farmer martin went over the top by shooting someone who was fleeing. thats wrong becuase your safety is no longer an issue, though i'm sure he didn't measn to kill the guy.
    getting tough on crime and criminals should mean tough. the burglar should know beyond any doubt whatsoever that he loses any rights whatsoever the moment he even starts trying to break in to a house. what can possibly be wrong with that being enshrined in law?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My house was 'creeped' and so was my friends house, if that night i had have caught someone in my house i would have attacked the person since i found out the person who done it was 18, coming 19.
    what can possibly be wrong with that being enshrined in law?

    nothing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Shogun
    nothing.

    so why isn't it? that's what i don't understand :confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by KoolCat
    so why isn't it? that's what i don't understand :confused:

    because we live in the Uk, a stupid corrupt government with no sense around it, just look at the laws of today, even the burgular who robbed that farmer's house got out before the farmer did, i wonder what it will be like in 10 years here?

    People know that burgulars should have no rights whenever they enter another persons home, my friend who is very against people breaking into his house said he was going to go up and ask a policeman ' would it be a crime if i decided to kill a man in my home' :lol: that wouldn't be a smart idea, would it?nope, the police would probably think he was planning a murder and follow and check up on him.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    sigh

    you wait till i get in government :lol:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    if i was in government this country would be different...very very different, no wars, money for schools, nhs, world hunger would be sorted out, cannabis made legal of course ;) more jobs for the public among many other things.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Promised like a true politician Shogun! ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Shogun
    if i was in government this country would be different...very very different, no wars, money for schools, nhs, world hunger would be sorted out, cannabis made legal of course ;) more jobs for the public among many other things.

    Idealist, huh? ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I like your new avatar and sig Clan!

    I don't think burglars should have any right to sue for compensation. That you cannot put barbed wire on top of your garden fence because burglars could cut themselves is ludicrous.

    However no-one has the right to take another person's life unless they are defending themselves. In the case of Tony Martin, he shot a kid who was running away in the back with a shotgun. That wasn't self-defence, that was murder. That he got his conviction changed to manslaughter and was freed after 3-odd years is a fucking disgrace.

    Funnily enough the ultra right wing press, usually quick to complain about murderers and robbers being let free after serving short sentences, doesn't have much of a problem about this particular child murderer being freed after serving only 3 years. I'm sure the fact that the intruders were gypsies and Martin is a good old-fashioned Tory-voting white British farmer has nothing to do with it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    even if Tony Martin shot Fred Barras in the back I still say he shouldn't have been their in the first place & Martin has a right to defend himself and his property. If Barras's pikey parents would have known how to raise children maybe he wouldn't have been going around breaking into people's houses.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    He has a right to defend himself and his property, but the jury found that he wasn't doing that- he killed purposely and unnecessarily, and that is murder.

    Let me put it another way. If he had gone out and shot again the burglar who survived as he lay on the grass injured, would you still say he was within his right to do so?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Promised like a true politician Shogun! ;)

    :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    However no-one has the right to take another person's life unless they are defending themselves. In the case of Tony Martin, he shot a kid who was running away in the back with a shotgun. That wasn't self-defence, that was murder. That he got his conviction changed to manslaughter and was freed after 3-odd years is a fucking disgrace.

    thing is though, in a case like that, how can you be sure the intruder is running away. you don't know what their intentions are. he could have been running to the kitchen to get a knife. i just don't think it's as clear cut and simple as murder.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree that not everything can be in black and white and that there might be room for confusion, especially in a tense situation such as a break-in.

    What I find disturbing is that many people, including much of our righteous press, are not questioning the circumstances of the killing but simply saying it's okay to murder someone if he breaks into your house.

    There is a possibility that Martin did not know the kid was running away. But the jury found without doubt that he was fully aware the kid was running away trying to escape, and he still went and shot him in the back. Under those circumstances the killing qualifies as a murder. The jury could be wrong, but chances are it isn't. I am not aware of Martin claiming otherwise during the trial and stay in prison. If anything, he refused to apologise or show remorse for the killing (until his £100,000 interview with the Mirror today), which reinforces the view that he did intend to kill the burglar, probably thinking he got what he deserved.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    What I find disturbing is that many people, including much of our righteous press, are not questioning the circumstances of the killing but simply saying it's okay to murder someone if he breaks into your house.

    i don't read that kind of newspaper :no:

    anyway, sorry to harp on, but another point. if the daily mirror (or whoever it was) didn't put so much pressure (and pay loads of money presumably) for Martin to plead not guilty, would he have pleaded guilty and accepted the consequences? if he had done that, there wouldn't have been any story in it for the papers and the whole thing would have blown over ages ago.

    too much press interference, it sickens me. it's why nothing ever gets sorted out!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No. This is such an example of liberalism gone mad it isn't funny.

    For one thing, if it's dark and someone has broken into your house, how long do you give that person to prove he/she doesn't have a weapon...or buddies in your house too?

    The homeowner has the right to defend him/herself...and a defense of "I felt threatened" should be enough.

    If the laws were on the homeowner's side...there would be less burgleries in the first place.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by morrocan roll
    byby most burglaries are comitted whie the ocupier is in. if anyone enters my house ilegaly then they are hopefuly going to get seriously hurt and not my wife and daughter, or myself come to it. if a guy comes in when he knows your home the chances are he is going to hurt you, probably come prepared to hurt you as he is desperate, he has to escape and preferably with some loot.
    i will not be interveiwing the guy as to what he's carrying and if his intentions are to hurt anyone. i will attack. no good standing there threatening them while you walk backwards in abject terror.
    you will loose. i'll attack first as i believe that gives me the best chance of survival, the best chance of protecting my family.
    if it is clearly a young helpless looking kid i might hesitate and demand he leaves but ...

    Ah yes..but do you and would you have a gun?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Has anyone considered the possibility that if it was put into law that we could defend our property by whatever means we deem fit the likelihood of burglars being armed would skyrocket? In fact comparatively few burglars in the UK carry a weapon on them - not say they wouldn't use force if you disturbed them but they don't carry weapons - if we say to people that they can use knives or whatever they deem necessary to protect their homes wouldn't the burglars just go to their contacts and pick up a gun instead? Think about all the reports you read of the elderly who get battered because they disturb a burglar, in most cases they'll live through that horrible experience - how many elderly people would live after confronting a burglar with a gun?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by byny
    Ah yes..but do you and would you have a gun?

    I'd like a gun.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by monocrat
    I'd like a gun.

    To use on yourself I assume? Seeing as how to use it on another would go against their personal rights.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by kevlar85
    To use on yourself I assume? Seeing as how to use it on another would go against their personal rights.

    Nope. Not if it is NOT used on a person.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by byny
    Ah yes..but do you and would you have a gun?
    no i don't have a gun and don't want one.
    farmers always have guns. i understand why he reached for his gun in yet another frustrating and frightening attack on his home.
    when your sat at home watching telly or having a bath, a nap or whatever ...the system we live in suddenly doesn't just label you as a criminal but a murderer ...martin had no intention of going out killing anyone that night. no intention of breaking the law ...he had said if those bastards come again i'll shoot the fuckers ...manslaughter for a man sat at home minding his own bizz is a more fitting charge than murder.
    i'm not suggesting having the right to kill an intruder but i am saying you shouild not only have the right to attack an intruder in your house before they attack you ...but that it should be deemed the 'normal' thing to do. it is a reaction of survival and protection. they shouldn't be there! most 'creepers' are armed with a knife or razor ...be nice and liberal about it until you experience the terror of it. then you will forever be changed and ready ...for the next time.
    if you think that sitting down and making the guy a cup of tea is best then you live with it when your daughter is raped or slashed etc ...in my book you will have failed your family in the most basic of human ways.
    is the big menacing figure in front of you after property or flesh? you ask ...i'll attack ...and the law should be firmly on my side seeing as i was at home with no evil intent whatsoever on my mind that day. the world is becoming ever more violent ...yet you still want to stick up for the bastard perpetrator and threat to your family ...if the guy dies ...the law should still be on the side of the man who was sitting at home planning no evil that night.
    sticking up for the burglar is very sad and misguided ...start a vburglars union? recognise it as a trade with expected pay and conditions? don't make me fucking cry!
    spend a yeart in strangeways jail in manchester ...north of england, listen to these guys and then tell me you understand.
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