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Margaret Thatcher has died

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As an aside, lets look at how another hugely influential Prime Minister was treated in death.

    This man, Clement Attlee, was deputy during WW2, on his election afterwards his Govt brough in the NHS, the welfare state, universal family allowances, emancipation of married women (giving them property rights), fair wages resolution, nationalised a number of businesses (inc. The Bank of England, Coal mining, the railways, electricity, gas, steel), free secondary school education as a right because it wasn't beforehand...

    When he died there was a 45 minute tribute debate in parliament and a private funeral.

    Now, I can understand our first female PM being recognised with a little more pomp, but not on the basis of her "achievements"...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This thread has basically displayed everything that is wrong with the far left. They somehow believe that petty name calling and spuing hate filled garbage about almost everyone who isn’t a die hard socialist counts as “standing up for the little guy” but offer very little in terms of actual solutions.

    Saying “I’m really glad she’s dead” or “I’d piss on her coffin” just makes you look like a complete tool, regardless of who it is you are talking about.

    Ironic thing is, the people who say that kind of thing often accuse Thatcher of being sub human or lacking empathy. Having a street party because someone has died is about as sub human an act that you could do inside the law. These people have no concept of just how hypocritical they are being.

    You don’t have to mourn her, like her or respect her, and you have every right to debate the rights and wrongs of her time as PM (obviously, that’s democracy) but the deeply personal abuse (directed at a person that i doubt any of you actually met in person) is just unnecessary and moronic tbh.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And spending £10,000,000.00 on a circle jerk for a PM half the country hated shows everything that's wrong with the Conservative Party. Spend everyone else's money on a favoured few whilst claiming to be in favour of a "small state". Hmm.

    At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, does that mean I can't be glad Hitler, or Pol Pot, or Franco are dead because I never met them? But I'm sure they were all really charming at dinner parties.

    I don't think Thatcher was lacking empathy. I think she knew exactly what she was doing. She just didn't care. That makes her a sociopath.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And spending £10,000,000.00 on a circle jerk for a PM half the country hated shows everything that's wrong with the Conservative Party. Spend everyone else's money on a favoured few whilst claiming to be in favour of a "small state". Hmm.

    At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, does that mean I can't be glad Hitler, or Pol Pot, or Franco are dead because I never met them? But I'm sure they were all really charming at dinner parties.

    I don't think Thatcher was lacking empathy. I think she knew exactly what she was doing. She just didn't care. That makes her a sociopath.

    There is a huge leap from "I don't think they should spend 10M on her funeral" (I agree), or strongly disagreeing with her politics, to "I would quite like to piss on her coffin". That's just fucking disgusting.

    I don't think we should have spent millions on the royal wedding (which i paid for) However that doesn't mean i had a right to break into Kate's dressing room and defacate on her wedding dress.

    I'm going to treat the Hitler stuff with the disdain it deserves. Thatcher may well have been a sociopath, but she was an elected one.

    For all the talk of her dividing the nation it is now the lefties who are turning this into "rich vs poor". Believe it or not there are plenty of "regular people" who did like her.
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    Annaarrr!!Annaarrr!! Posts: 876 Part of The Mix Family
    go ahead and be glad theyre dead. how you feel is no one elses business as long as it's private. it's all the open and public abuse that is sickening
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Everybody seen the polling that suggests the Tory party would get a massive 8 point bump in the polls if a young Thatcher was in charge again? Currently most of the Tory cabinet polling around the same ish level they were a year ago, apart from a slight improvement for Osborne (only because he was very badly rated last year). Oh and Miliband slipping downwards into worse territory.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/15/margaret-thatcher-death-polling-cameron
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Annaarrr!! wrote: »
    go ahead and be glad theyre dead. how you feel is no one elses business as long as it's private. it's all the open and public abuse that is sickening

    But people are allowed to publicly arse lick her and suck up to her every political decision? We will in a democracy, people are allowed to voice their opinions.
    If people are allowed to put her on a pedestal, mourn her, grieve for her, then why aren't others allowed to counter act that?
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    Annaarrr!!Annaarrr!! Posts: 876 Part of The Mix Family
    you are allowed. doesn't mean it's not disgusting and disrespectful though
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Annaarrr!! wrote: »
    you are allowed. doesn't mean it's not disgusting and disrespectful though

    Actually, I'm being swayed by the other side. She was a truly terrible woman, those that suffered at her hands are completely entitled to be "disrespectful", and I haven't seen anything disgusting.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think we are talking about the hypothetical going and pissing on a coffin.

    I understand and accept the anger directed towards thatcher, though some of the far far left (like really really far) need to be careful they protest but dont do anything massively tasteless, and I mean really bad, other wise theres the risk that decline in Tory support may slow down.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Neddy wrote: »
    I'm going to treat the Hitler stuff with the disdain it deserves. Thatcher may well have been a sociopath, but she was an elected one.

    Are you suggesting that Hitler wasn't elected? He might've quickly used his powers to cement his place, but he was at least initially elected fairly.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    apparently hitler was very charismatic
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    plus maggie never actually won a majority
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hitler was elected, you know. Just for the record. And lots of Spaniards still want Franco back, even now. It's not an irrelevant point at all.

    It'll be interesting where they bury the old bag. Hope they install a good dance floor. FWIW I think Steve Bell got it right in his Grauniad cartoon.

    You've still not explained why she is deserving of respect just because she's dead.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    JUST BECAUSE ofc!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ah yes, silly me.

    Destroying the lives of millions of hard-working people is fine. Destroying their communities is acceptable.

    Supporting a murderous dictator is great. Enabling him to rape and murder women and children is fantastic.

    But delighting in the death of someone who does all that? It makes me a monster.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think it's just a political football.

    I think the most objectionable thing for me is the level of ponce and prestige the ceremony is being given.

    I'm not saying there shouldn't be a ceremony, but you would think the current government weren't aware how divisive she was. How much pain is still felt today as a result of Thatchers government.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm torn on this one.

    Popular or not, she was a hugely influential figure on our country - and as such I think her passing should be marked in some way. The polarity of opinions on the subject mean that whatever you do is going to end up being expensive, and sticking with the well practised off the shelf state funeral style event probably actually helps keep the costs down as much as possible. Personally I'm not sure doing nothing at all was really an option.

    On the respect the dead/respectful of death and mourning front I can see both sides. I have no objection to people raising justified criticism however struggle to see the 'ding dong the witch is dead' or wanting to dance on the grave approach being the way to do it. By all means use it as a trigger for a protest, to raise the profile of what individuals see as on going problems, to challenge the status quo - but at one point there seemed to be a lot of lets celebrate 'because she was a baddie innit'.

    It also feels that a lot of the comments are well overdue. She's not been a prime minister for a long time, neither has she had an active influence on politics beyond her legacy. What's actually changed in her dying? If she'd been sitting in Lords up until her death or at least recently then the response would feel slightly more relevant.

    As it is, I'm not sure what anyone really thinks they're going to achieve, other than making themselves look obnoxious. It almost seems like a missed opportunity to use it as a trigger to make some decent points.

    All that said, my perspective is somewhat warped as I live somewhere where no one gives a damn.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    hitler was influential
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yup. 10/10.

    I don't actually know what, if anything was done to mark Hitlers death - although have a vague niggling feeling that it was covered up/played down as a part of one sides strategy in the war.

    Personally I don't think there is anything to be gained in drawing comparisons between the death of Margaret Thatcher and the death of Hitler. One died while they were still a strong and active influence on affairs at the time, and during war time. The other died a long time after their active influence ended, during peacetime.
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    Annaarrr!!Annaarrr!! Posts: 876 Part of The Mix Family
    As I said before. People should be respectful of the dead in general. They're dead. Neither they nor anyone else can do anything about what they did in their life now so what's the point? Just let the dead rest in peace.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Plenty of Chileans celebrated the death of Pinochet. I guess that's the perfect comparison, the torturer's death and then the death of his biggest supporter.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Pinochet#Death

    Amusingly the Daily Heil fully celebrated the death of Osama Bin Laden. But then we all know Conservative Party supporters are all mentally unstable hypocrites.

    Celebrating her death neither changes the future nor the past, but I don't think that's really the point. The point is to be united in glee that the witch is dead. My only sadness is that it was a peaceful death in her sleep.

    As for the level of prestige awarded to the funeral, the Conservative Scum wanted it so they could all masturbate furiously over her corpse. That's what the Toryfilth 1922 committee love to do more than anything else. You can see that they're beginning to understand they've misjudged the atmosphere of the country, heavily briefing now that it was in fact Gordon Brown who planned most of this funeral in 2008. Yes, of course it was :rolleyes:
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    Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    Annaarrr!! wrote: »
    As I said before. People should be respectful of the dead in general. They're dead. Neither they nor anyone else can do anything about what they did in their life now so what's the point? Just let the dead rest in peace.
    What does respect have to do with the ability to change things? I don't see a connection.
    And even if there was a connection, it makes no difference whether the person is alive or dead. Neither can change the past.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru

    Destroying the lives of millions of hard-working people is fine. Destroying their communities is acceptable.

    Of course, everything in the north was fine and dandy in 1979 and then Thatcher came along and destroyed it all....just for kicks.

    You are so unbelievably blinkered in your hatred of the woman you have turned her into some kind of cartoon villain who is solely responsible for all of the country's ills. Even today, over 20 years after she left office.

    Forgetting whether you should respect the dead or not, that's just mental
    But then we all know Conservative Party supporters are all mentally unstable hypocrites.

    Base on your last few posts I'm thinking maybe you should join them. You'd fit right in :thumb:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I still think the crux of it for me is that her government's policies were extremely painful for a lot of people. Obviously there were a lot of winners too. But having a national celebration of her life and parading her as the heroine who saved Britain is rubbing salt in the wound for all of those north of Luton.

    Low key, respectful. It's the British way anyway. Allow the protests too, though I won't be joining them, instead I'll be eating ice cream, watching the inbetweeners and cuddling my girlfriend.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    But having a national celebration of her life and parading her as the heroine who saved Britain is rubbing salt in the wound for all of those north of Luton.

    I agree it's over the top. But then people are generally revered a lot more than they should be shortly after their death. It's just what happens.

    But....any election map from the past 30 years would tell you that plenty of people (millions, actually) north of Luton vote conservative.

    You lefties really don't do yourselves any favours with these sweeping and often highly inaccurate generalisations.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    People in rural areas or wealthy areas vote Conservative, whether it is up north or down south. But it'll be a cold day in hell before anyone from a former mining or shipbuilding town will vote Conservative after what Thatcher did to their communities.

    I don't really know or care whether Thatcher was misguided or malicious, the truth is probably a combination of the two. The fact is that she allowed these communities to be destroyed because it allowed her mates in big business to make their millions. Take right-to-buy as an example; about 100 ex-council flats in one London borough are now owned by the son of Thatcher's housing minister. She was all about stealing from the poor to give to the rich, and that is why I despise her and her legacy and her sympathisers in the Conservative Party.

    As for hypocrisy, it'll be interesting to see how the death of Fidel Castro gets reported by the right-wing media. Personally I couldn't give a toss if some jumped up Hugo wants to celebrate his death.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Godwin's Law. Page 12. Not bad.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    AR - have you spoken to many Spanish people recently? I lived there for three years and there are very very few people who want Franco back. He utterly destroyed the south, and the damage is still there to see if you go down some of the back streets of Granada or Malaga.

    I think this having respect for the was thing very much depends on your beliefs - if you don't believe in any afterlife then why should you have respect for them. But I can see the counter argument there.

    I would also add many rural communities vote lib dem and have done for sometime - for instance lots of the West Country is or at least has been in recent past lib dem.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Neddy wrote: »
    I agree it's over the top. But then people are generally revered a lot more than they should be shortly after their death. It's just what happens.

    But....any election map from the past 30 years would tell you that plenty of people (millions, actually) north of Luton vote conservative.

    You lefties really don't do yourselves any favours with these sweeping and often highly inaccurate generalisations.

    This has nothing to do with me being left or right. You are being very ignorant now and saying everyone with a dissenting opinion is part of the leftie homogeneous mob.

    And yes it was a generalisation, one that a great number of people would have understood is a rhetorical tool for the purpose of discussion to reinforce a point. People have done this since people have had discussions. If you would like to refute the point that a great number of people suffered as a consequence of Thatchers government feel free.

    However you're right, discussion actual points is painful for the simple minded, and point scoring is easy.
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