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So why have nuclear weapons? Or do they discriminate?
Yes we should be upset. We are about the fact that we did it. It's the very reason we try to avoid doing it now.
We just shouldn't pretend that we would never do it again.
Maybe we wouldn't firebomb cities, however what makes you think there won't be another war as bad, or worse than the second world war in a few years time?
You're right though, we wouldn't use firebombs, if the war was bad enough, or becoming unwinnable we'd just use nuclear weapons.
I believe our morals are no different, and our motives and ability to kill large numbers of civilians are still present, even today. You have to remember, WW2 was only 60 years ago, and you should know like everyone else that humans are notriously crap at learning from past mistakes.
The time will come when we, like our forefathers will see no alternative but to wipe out as many enemy soldiers and civilians as possible to beat off defeat. Not a case of IF, but WHEN.
I'll wager that there will be another major world war within my lifetime.
Deterrant.
If there were any chance of the west using them(again) then we would have done so.
Personally I can categorically state that I would die before I lost my morality and decided to specifically go after the families of my enemy.
I think they will become necessary.
I disagree, I just believe that the provocation hasn't been there. Or at least suficient provocation.
If a foreign state used a nuclear weapon on the US, doctrine is that they respond in kind, do you think that they wouldn't?
A nation state will do whatever is necessary in order to survive...
In your present state of mind, based on present circumstances.
Me too, but things change and I know that if push comes to shove I would do whatever I had to, in order to protect my country. If I thought that killing the family of my enemy was the solution, then I wouldn't have a problem with it...
That would depend on whether it was strategically worthwhile to do so...If the foreign state had more nukes for example, then the US may well strike back to disable those...But then that would not be specifically targetting civilians...Remember I said its all about motive.
In another thread, I believe was on this board, I made a comment about suicide bombers...If a suicide bomber purposefully blows up a bus full of civilians then that is horrific and morally reprehensible. But if a bomber goes after a bus that has X number of soldiers on, but also the same number of civlians as in the previous bus, then that is less morally reprehensible IMO as long as the soldiers were the primary target. Maybe I have strange morals.
Well you can say that about anything....Would you rape and murder a little girl to ensure your countries survival? I cant think of anything that would make me knowingly and specifically murder innocent women and children.
So would Man of Kent, and most people of the world. It just makes him feel better to claim he wouldn't.
Oh aren't we Mr High and fucking mighty? What, you think you are better than me because you've served. Twat.
What is your assertion based on, eh? Fuck all basically.
Do you think I take my liberty for granted, do you think that I wouldn't stand up and fight to preserve the freedoms I have?
I think you're just like most people around the world, and not willing to actually take action that will truly put your life at risk. And yes, I think you wouldn't stand up and fight to preserve the freedoms you have, because you haven't.
Because I haven't had to, unless you can tell me otherwise...
*wonders when his freedom was under threat*
Just a note too, it was people like me who signed up to fight the Nazis putting their lives in danger just to maintain their freedom. I think you have underestimated me.
Or you have overestimated yourself. It wasn't people like you who fought the Nazis. See, the people who fought the Nazis actually did it, they didn't just talk about it. Until you have done that, signed that dotted line, you aren't like them.
I am like them, just an average joe, living my life. How many of the WW2 veterans were fighting before they needed to FFS. Until I have the opportunity, or need, (and god help us if that ever comes to pass) don't dismiss me. Unless you suggest that I start the next World War...
You haven't told me when I should have fought to retain my freedom either.
And there is why you shall never be like them. They didn't fight to retain their own freedoms. They fought to bring freedom back to others of the world. To liberate the oppressed.
You've had lots of chances to be like them. Everyone has. But the selfishness that you have demonstrated in your post indicates you never will.
"And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by, From this day to the ending of the world, But we in it shall be remember'd; We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For he to-day that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile"
Shakespeare understood. It's nothing new. But it takes more than caring about only yourself.
Man of Kent:
We make our choices, evaluate our options, focus upon our priorities, and plot our course.
There is a difference between talking about it, and doing it...
I count amongst my current day friends a couple of Brits who fought in some of the same places in Vietnam as I. They fought within Australian units. They set aside their lives, their hopes, dreams, and goals, and took up arms in the defense of freedom on the opposite side of the world.
Me? I was an astro-physics major in college when I received a draft notice. I had a student deferment, but rather than contest conscription (which I would have won), I set aside my life, and enlisted in the Marine Corps. I accepted my individual responsibility for the privileges I enjoy.
I have attempted to maintain civility with you in past weeks, but to state that you are "just like" those of us who have served, is to demean our service, the sacrifices that each of us made when we chose to support something we valued more than ourselves.
I brought more back from my service than just scars from bullet wounds... let us simply call them "issues". I never sat in a classroom again; that time was over, forever. Many of my brothers did, and resumed theirs lives. Some of us could not. I never competed in track or cross country again; those sports had purchased my scholarship to college. I exchanged academics and athletics for a dutiful fulfillment of honor.
My service does not make me "better" than you, nor anyone else. It does not make me less than others, either.
Talk is cheap... it is ACTIONS which bring value or merit.
Our freedom is ALWAYS under threat.
Some step forward to take up the defense. Most take the step back, and expect others to serve, because they have different priorities.
It is possible that you could place such an aluturist perception on the actions of US servicemen in Europe during WWII, but the same could not be said of UK forces. At the time the whole of Europe was under threat, and that included the UK (and therefore UK "freedom"), unless you believe that allowing the Germans to run amok through Europe in 1939 wouldn't have led to a loss of freedom here...
and now put that quote into context. Again was the battle about to be fought an alturistic one?
I never sought to belittle you or your actions, but then I didn't.
The comparison being made was between the WWII vets and me. I maintain that until the outset of the war, they were just like me. Getting on with their lives and not part of a standing army. They were your average bloke in the street who, until his country called, never had a thought of fighting. Then the very existence of our country was placed in peril. My countrymen signed up (some conscripted)...in the same situation I would do the same.
They waited until called, so do I. Where is the difference?
The freedom of England and the United Kingdom was not threatened until June of 1940 by your standards. But they went anyway. You have no call to compare yourself because they proved by their actions their commitment. All you have proven is that you can type a lot.
Better yet... I had this thought that I could be a doctor, even a SURGEON! Because I thought it, must mean that it is the reality, right?
I used to write music, back in another time. Must mean that I am just like *pick your favorite*....
Hmmm...massive German rearmament...annexation and invasion of neighbours...
No you're right, how could I be so stupid, they were never threatening us all, were they?
that's why we declared war...
What we should have done was wait until they had reached the beaches before deciding to defend our interests.
Like the US did.
They went because we declared war. They went because their country asked. What they proved was that when their country asked, they came.
Thankfully, I haven't had to answer that call yet. But when it comes...
Oh please. I expect better from you.
I say I am like a bloke who lived his life and then answered a call and you talk about Pele, Jordan etc and how you dreamed to be something you could never be.
Tell me, if WWII hadn't started, what do you think those men would have been doing? Fighting anyway, or just carrying on with their lives...
Until we need to defend our freedoms then we are just average people, however we are capable of defending those freedoms if it is necessary.
I don't count flying halfway around the world to fight for someone else as fighting for freedom, that is fighting to preserve your international assets.
Never during world war 2, or any of the wars since then has the USA been in danger of destruction, or the people of the USA had their liberties threatened. The closest you may have tangibly come to that is during the cold war, however that was as much about political stubborness as it was national self preservtion.
Thus, you don't fight for freedom, you fight for national interests.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not belittleing any of you, it just gets very annoying when you continuously go on about freedom, when you've never actually had to fight for freedom.
Personally, I'd say you'd got the context wrong. They fought for the same reason we declared war on Germany. Defending their freedoms...and those come from national interests..at what point was the rise of communism to be opposed. I think that they chose the right place and time, rather than wait until faced with it on their doorstep...
Kerching, at least someone understands what I meant...
Until you have ANSWERED "the call", you are merely speculating as what you hope things would be. When you have proven your mettle, then you have the basis to speak of things which ARE.
Point was... just because I think it, does not make it to be... and our freedoms are CONSTANTLY in peril.
Am not going to confront the Vn comments... will allow you to pull the weeds from your own garden.
To give a perspective:
When I was a kid, from the time that Jim Ryan broke 4:00 for the mile while in high school, then went on to set the world record, I wanted to run in the Olympics, and take that world record.
When I was 16 yrs old, I ran a 4:13 mile to beat a runner named Prefontaine, who still holds the age group world record for the 2 mile. Prefontaine went on to be the cause of perhaps the greatest 5,000m race in Olympic history... Munich.
And where was I during that time frame (Munich)? Coming home from Vietnam, after being shot the second time in combat. I had been drafted while in college with a jock scholarship, and a student deferment. I enlisted in the Marine Corps.
Woulda/coulda/shoulds is just so much masturbatory bullshit until you can speak of what you have ALREADY done.
Where did I get my hardassed attitude?
Woulda/coulda/shoulda got people killed in Vietnam.
Can I say that I would have been just like Jim Ryan, but for circumstances? No one will ever know, and because I have not done the deed, I cannot speculate/masturbate...
Nothing personal, MoK... just a clarification of "terms"...
Just how do you know that you are capable until you do it? Many have said the same as you have and have faltered and fallen under the pressure of committment.
Do not talk smack until you come to point where you must make the choice.
And yes, during WWII, the US has fought for itself and was in danger of destruction. That was the basis of Pearl Harbor you fool. We WERE attacked on home ground. Or was that part cut out of your history books? That was how we came to be part of WWII.
And fighting against Hitler for that matter...that maniac was out to conquer beyond Germany. He had much power and much influence. The fate of the free world near and far was in jeopardy.
If you had listened and read anything, you would have known that.
But of course, open mouth and nothing good coming out.
So, are you telling me that your country hasn't asked?
Maybe those Royal Marines in Afghanistan are a figment of someone's imagination? Or the SAS and SBS contingents doing their part in various regions of the world?
It wasn't only Americans who died in the twin towers. Your nation has been attacked, and has called, and responded...
And you?
And so your lot were doing what exactley to combat this threat before Pearl Habour ?
Arming your lot.