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thats so gay

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Okay. Let's go back to my point that treating people who commit suicide as martyrs is stupid (regardless of their reason), rather than telling me that gays get bullied a lot which I have already agreed with multiple times.

    My problem is not that the media tells us that gay kids are being bullied. It's that we look at people who commit suicide and go, "Oh, that poor thing, they were so brave in their life for putting up with that." Suicide is not brave. It is not noble. It does not deserve to be glorified.
    The fact they committed suicide is not the point - it demonstrates that whatever circumstances might drive a young person to committ suicide are prevalent within this group of people. While the act does not deserve to be glorified, it does highlight an important issue, and certainly should not be vilified either.
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,182 Skive's The Limit
    Problem with that. You're assuming my feelings on suicide is at all affected by my feelings on homosexuality. As the Clan that The Chief rolls with actually has a gay person in it and the Chief also stated earlier that he has stood up for people who were being bullied (regardless of sexual preference), it's nonsensical to presume that anyone would think I would bully them for their sexual orientation.

    Regardless, if my unwillingness to walk on eggshells (which is unhealthy, mind you) makes me a cunt, then by all means, call me Chief Jay Strongcunt. I love the mantra of bleeding heart progressives: "SPEAK YOUR MIND, BE WHO YOU ARE AND DON'T BE AFRAID OF WHAT PEOPLE THINK (unless of course, you disagree with us, in which case... shut. the fuck. up.)"


    This place has to remain accessible to vunerable young people that's all said. It's an advice board where you are a guest, where you should be mindful of what you say. Not a place to come and stroke your ego. Was just pointing that out
    So, it's naive to not give up?

    It's naive not to be able to invisage a situation where somebody may feel that the only route left is to take their own life.
    Good job advocating to kids being bullied that it's the right thing to do to kill themselves.

    Where did I say that? You're off your rocker.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,182 Skive's The Limit
    I don't think it's naive to tell people that they are capable of surviving, to want to push them to succeed with life rather than indirectly saying that suicide is sometimes okay if you're really really sad.

    Course it's not the right thing to do, but that's not to say you shouldn't feel sympathy for those that do.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This place has to remain accessible to vunerable young people that's all said. It's an advice board where you are a guest, where you should be mindful of what you say. Not a place to come and stroke your ego. Was just pointing that out

    Where was anyone stroking their ego? I stated my opinion. Does that mean anyone else who posted in this thread is also stroking their ego?
    It's naive not to be able to invisage a situation where somebody may feel that the only route left is to take their own life.



    Where did I say that? You're off your rocker.

    I was giving you a sample of your own logic. I know you didn't mean to imply that, but as you're quite fond of twisting statements to mean other things, I figured I'd show you what it's like. But I very well could make a case that you stating their are viable reasons for suicide is implication that it's okay. But I know you didn't mean that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    so, from what I understand in this topic and from the opinions of the English, if I call someone a faggot, they'll commit suicide because it's a bad word and it hurts their ever-so-important feelings. I also understand that, apparently, it's ignorant to believe that there are other options, besides suicide, in response being called a fag or "bullied" in the everlasting important realm of high school.

    god, that's so gay.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So anyone who commits suicide should be treated as a martyr? Do you think it's perfectly fine to give up? I advocate pushing forward, knowing you have the strength within you to get through it, and coming out of the experience as a better, stronger person. Is that a bad thing?

    No, it's not a bad thing to have to strength to keep going - that's totally different from saying you have no compassion for someone who commits suicide. Some people do it because they can't cope with life and are convinced they never will, others because they've simply lived their life and had enough of this world. I don't see why someone taking that choice should be criticised as weak or somehow worthy of derision, unless you're coming from some fucked up religious perspective.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The fact they committed suicide is not the point - it demonstrates that whatever circumstances might drive a young person to committ suicide are prevalent within this group of people. While the act does not deserve to be glorified, it does highlight an important issue, and certainly should not be vilified either.

    http://www.suicide.org/suicide-causes.html

    I don't think suicide should be vilified, per se. I just don't see why so many people choose to focus on those who are already dead than on those who are continuing to struggle. I've noticed that there is suddenly more sympathy for these people after they're dead. When someone commits suicide, suddenly everyone and their brother stands up for the cause (for about a week) and claims to have been their best friend and talks about how horrible it is that this has to happen to anyone. When they're alive, fewer people stand up to say anything.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, it's not a bad thing to have to strength to keep going - that's totally different from saying you have no compassion for someone who commits suicide. Some people do it because they can't cope with life and are convinced they never will, others because they've simply lived their life and had enough of this world. I don't see why someone taking that choice should be criticised as weak or somehow worthy of derision, unless you're coming from some fucked up religious perspective.

    See, this is what I mean. I never said criticize or deride anyone. I said I don't have compassion for people who commit suicide. A =/= B. Think of it like positive reinforcement parenting for those who manage to stand their ground.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote: »
    No, it's not a bad thing to have to strength to keep going - that's totally different from saying you have no compassion for someone who commits suicide. Some people do it because they can't cope with life and are convinced they never will, others because they've simply lived their life and had enough of this world. I don't see why someone taking that choice should be criticised as weak or somehow worthy of derision, unless you're coming from some fucked up religious perspective.

    ja, mate, because they said that they have "no compassion" when it comes to suicide, right?

    look, take it from someone who's considered suicide, it's pussy-footed way to deal with life. 90% of people who threaten it do it for the attention and the other 10% of them who actually (sometimes unsuccessfully, and don'tcha think that's for a reason?) commit to the act are supposed to approved and considered symbols?

    okay, so, symbolism is what you're getting at? so, hitler wanted to better his country, so he decided to kill all the jews so that he may disperse the money away from the greedy bastards and into his country. I think that's pretty symbolic, but does it make it right? does it mean we should sympathize with hitler for genodicing a group of people because he's symbolic?

    totally, dude, because he was a symbol. he had posters and shit, he must have been right.

    wrong.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote: »
    No, it's not a bad thing to have to strength to keep going - that's totally different from saying you have no compassion for someone who commits suicide. Some people do it because they can't cope with life and are convinced they never will, others because they've simply lived their life and had enough of this world. I don't see why someone taking that choice should be criticised as weak or somehow worthy of derision, unless you're coming from some fucked up religious perspective.

    If they're old and are happy with their life and would rather die on their own terms than be confined to a hospital bed later on, there's no need for sympathy because they're doing it for an entirely different reason. I can respect that. I don't want to get old and bedridden and dependent on other people to feed me and change me, either.

    I understand having problems you don't think you can cope with. I understand feeling like you can't control your own mind, your own emotion, and how hard it can be to cope sometimes. I don't criticize those who choose to end their lives, I just don't treat them like they're somehow special for it. I wish they wouldn't blind themselves to the reality that they can get through it, that they're capable. I wish people wouldn't act like suicide is an acceptable treatment for depression. I wish those contemplating suicide could see what I see, could see that life is beautiful, something to be treasured and not thrown away over things that we can overcome. I think taking the "easy way out" is the wrong thing to do, although I'm hardly going to spit on their grave or anything.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i never implied when i started the thread that it would make gay people commit suicide, but that in general that overuse of the word gay to mean crap and pathetic would cumulatively have an effect on the way people perceived actual gayness, and make young gay people have a harder time coming to terms with it, even worse than they already do.

    Even when youve got gay people here saying they actually DO find it offensive, im really surprised at the attitude of "oh well, fuck you then" from some people, as though its a BIG ASK to modify your language just a little to make it less offensive to an already marginalised group
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i never implied when i started the thread that it would make gay people commit suicide, but that in general that overuse of the word gay to mean crap and pathetic would cumulatively have an effect on the way people perceived actual gayness, and make young gay people have a harder time coming to terms with it, even worse than they already do.

    Even when youve got gay people here saying they actually DO find it offensive, im really surprised at the attitude of "oh well, fuck you then" from some people, as though its a BIG ASK to modify your language just a little to make it less offensive to an already marginalised group
    :heart:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i never implied when i started the thread that it would make gay people commit suicide, but that in general that overuse of the word gay to mean crap and pathetic would cumulatively have an effect on the way people perceived actual gayness, and make young gay people have a harder time coming to terms with it, even worse than they already do.

    Even when youve got gay people here saying they actually DO find it offensive, im really surprised at the attitude of "oh well, fuck you then" from some people, as though its a BIG ASK to modify your language just a little to make it less offensive to an already marginalised group

    I'm sorry for raising the issue of suicides, it was done badly and is a leap from the starting point of the thread, but I was surprised as SCC says at the fact that so many people just don't give a shit that it makes people's lives difficult. Particularly when they're young, gay people are very sensitive to language and indicators of how people will respond to them. There is a lot of a casual homophobia around and most of it goes unchallenged - look at the many times Chris Moyles has been excused for making hideous jokes about gay men.

    There is some evidence that violence against the gay community is increasing in the UK (although this may reflect increased reporting, no one's entirely sure) and anecdotally I'm beginning to hear of people in areas they've lived undisturbed for years suddenly being abused and threatened.

    With all of this in mind, it really does upset me that people can perceive it as 'just another word' and carry on. I'm sorry it made me lash out slightly emotionally.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    piccolo you dont need to keep apologising to people :heart:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    piccolo you dont need to keep apologising to people :heart:

    Seconded.

    The desperately sad thing is that sexual identity should be such non-issue - just one of myriad of, potentially uninteresting, things that person is.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru

    The desperately sad thing is that sexual identity should be such non-issue - just one of myriad of, potentially uninteresting, things that person is.

    should be, but isnt. Just because it should be, doesnt mean we should ignore the reality, or make it worse by attaching very negative connotations to it, or going along with it blithely when others do.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    should be, but isnt. Just because it should be, doesnt mean we should ignore the reality, or make it worse by attaching very negative connotations to it, or going along with it blithely when others do.

    I haven't suggested or condoned any of those things.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just curious, does your anti-suicide have anything to do with your religious beliefs?

    I don't advocate anyone commit suicide, being there myself because, well I'm gay. It's not nice growing up, being confused, being made to hate yourself because that is all you hear. When you come from a family with little to none gay family members (I know all of 2 who are "out", from my massive family) you have no one to tell you that people in this world DO care. I never heard people caring for the rights and happiness of gay people when I was growing up in secondary school. I'd always hear gay slurs being passed around to people in offensive manners (this never bothered me much at the time, but it does knowing just how homophobic these people really are now we're older) and nothing was being done about it. It was fine. [different more indepth thing though.]

    The more I was learning in the world, specially in politics and religion, I just saw more hatred towards homosexuals. No one, gay or not, can understand how that feels. It's a feeling you have personally. I agree that I wouldn't normally sympathize for someone who commited suicide, but I wouldn't say the same thing now. You cannot just say to a gay person who is thinking about it "life's hard, get a helmet". When you have religion, governments, your schools, even possibly your work place full of hatred all around you, even having the power to decide your life, remove your rights, and hate you for this one thing, even going to the lengths of killing you - that is not a time to just tell them to grow a pair of balls and get on with things. I don't even know how you can say something like that.
  • **helen****helen** Mod malarkist Posts: 9,235 Listening Ear
    i never implied when i started the thread that it would make gay people commit suicide, but that in general that overuse of the word gay to mean crap and pathetic would cumulatively have an effect on the way people perceived actual gayness, and make young gay people have a harder time coming to terms with it, even worse than they already do.

    Even when youve got gay people here saying they actually DO find it offensive, im really surprised at the attitude of "oh well, fuck you then" from some people, as though its a BIG ASK to modify your language just a little to make it less offensive to an already marginalised group

    Thanks for reminding us why you started this thread Suzy, I'm going to close it now as I think it's gone way for off what you intended and I think words need to be had with some people before such a topic is continued.

    On another note, I personally find the issue of suicide incredibly interesting and complex regardless of links to homosexuality and if people were able to have a really honest and respectful debate about it then it could be really interesting. :chin:
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