Religious people know they are full of shit.

Former Member

katralla wrote:

That's not true.

Why not?

Former Member

-[MoonRat]- wrote:

What about the labels you have given members of organised religion? So your labels are correct and theirs aren't?

What labels would they be?

Former Member

-[MoonRat]- wrote:

Why not?

Because not all Quakers are/were pacifists.

Former Member

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Former Member

I'm With Stupid wrote:

What labels would they be?

Obvious isn't it? Oram I the only one who sees it?

The very idea of organised religion is that one 'group' of people is morally superior to another.

Members of organised religion follow the idea/believe the idea that they are morally superior.

I think this is where I drop the bit in where people say that anyone who doesn't agree with their religion will burn in hell for all eternity.

Members of organised religion believe you'll go to hell if you don't follow their teachings.

Organised religion causes division and discrimination based purely on the labels that people are given, rather than because of any views or moral opinions any individual has offered.

Members of organised religion label themselves and other people and this causes the divide of communities.

Former Member

scarlettleeds wrote:

You seem unable to understand the fact that group identities, whether religions, ethnic, whatever, matter to people, are a fundamental part of how they define themselves and pursue their idea of the good life, and while of course they can have negative and divisive characteristics, they also bring a huge amount of value to people's lives.

Fair enough. Please explain further...

Former Member

katralla wrote:

Because not all Quakers are/were pacifists.

Please elaborate?

Former Member

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Former Member

-[MoonRat]- wrote:

So it's Ok for you as an individual to be intolerent about how others wish to live their lives and express their spirituality, as long as more than one of you doesn't hold the same opinion?

If I attack a set of ideas, I would assume that everyone who disagrees with me would argue back because they have actually thought about what I said and disagree, rather than take offence because the assume I was attacking their 'group'. How is intolerent to state that you believe a certain system is bad? It would only be intolerent if I attempted to stop the system from being allowed.

-[MoonRat]- wrote:

You didn't answer all my questions by the way,what do you think of the religions I mentioned and do they fit in with the model of what organised religion is that you proposed.

Yes, they all have the same basic flaw of giving someone a label based on their beliefs and the way (it is assumed) they live their life.

Former Member

scarlettleeds wrote:

You seem unable to understand the fact that group identities, whether religions, ethnic, whatever, matter to people, are a fundamental part of how they define themselves and pursue their idea of the good life, and while of course they can have negative and divisive characteristics, they also bring a huge amount of value to people's lives.

Examples?

Former Member

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Former Member

-[MoonRat]- wrote:

Obvious isn't it? Oram I the only one who sees it?


Members of organised religion follow the idea/believe the idea that they are morally superior.


Members of organised religion believe you'll go to hell if you don't follow their teachings.


Members of organised religion label themselves and other people and this causes the divide of communities.

You will notice that in all of those quotes, I have been very careful to talk about the system and not the members themselves, because I would never assume that everyone involved in organised religion believes a certain thing. The only time I came close was to say "people say....." which surely is not specific enough to cause offense to anyone except the people that said it? But if it did, I'm sorry.

Former Member

Well I've gotta go back in my hole now, but I'll be back later. Good debate by the way. :thumb:

Former Member

I'm With Stupid wrote:

If I attack a set of ideas, I would assume that everyone who disagrees with me would argue back because they have actually thought about what I said and disagree, rather than take offence because the assume I was attacking their 'group'. How is intolerent to state that you believe a certain system is bad? It would only be intolerent if I attempted to stop the system from being allowed.

Please answer my questions I asked several posts back, surely having made such a broad statement you'd have considered religions other than Christianity and Islam...

You are doing the same as they do. Most members of organised religion, obviously with the exception of extremists and fundies would criticise other individual's ideas. But people outside religion do that... We criticise each other's taste in music, each other's political orientation and so on... It is natural for people to seek perfection, which of course is an ideal individual to each and every one of us rather than a universal phenomenom. All people give labels, it is not unique to religion.

You don't seem very well researched on any of this, no offense. You make a broad statement and ignore any questions that threaten to knock that statement.

Yes, they all have the same basic flaw of giving someone a label based on their beliefs and the way (it is assumed) they live their life.

So how can you apply this to Baha'i?

Former Member

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Former Member

I'm With Stupid wrote:

You will notice that in all of those quotes, I have been very careful to talk about the system and not the members themselves, because I would never assume that everyone involved in organised religion believes a certain thing. The only time I came close was to say "people say....." which surely is not specific enough to cause offense to anyone except the people that said it? But if it did, I'm sorry.

Organised religion is not one universal system. That is the problem.

Former Member

scarlettleeds wrote:

our particular way of doing things and thinking about the world is not the standard, the norm for all humanity, but is cuturally and temporally specific

I think this puts us in agreement that religious people are religious because it suits them and they feel they gain positively from their religion rather than actually believing in god.

Former Member

On the topic, I don't think there is good religions or bad one, if the people believing in one are actually feeling better for it and find their path with it, well then good for them... I am not a believer myself, the only religion I believe in is me and my thoughts... for me everything can be a religion, religion is about believing in something... even if it is just believing in yourself... There is no bad or good religion imo, there is only good and bad people and they can come from different religion, races, beliefs etc... Morons and assholes are everywhere and are driven by their stupidity and by nothing else...

Former Member

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Former Member

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Former Member

scarlettleeds wrote:

:yes: well said NMM :thumb:

yep, post of the week!

Former Member

scarlettleeds wrote:

Er, no, I don't agree with that at all.

They do actually believe in God. And that faith enriches their lives and brings positive value to them.

Oh, but if the beliefs are culturally and temporally specific, does that not mean that had the religious person been of a different culture or time they would have believed something different? And does that not mean that what they believe is actually a product of their culture and time rather than the truth? And if the religious person is aware of this, how could they possibly 'believe' that what they have faith in is true?

Former Member

katralla wrote:

Oh, but if the beliefs are culturally and temporally specific, does that not mean that had the religious person been of a different culture or time they would have believed something different? And does that not mean that what they believe is actually a product of their culture and time rather than the truth? And if the religious person is aware of this, how could they possibly 'believe' that what they have faith in is true?

I dont see how that means the same as people enjoying their religion and it bringing joy to their lives. Just because they get something out of it, doesnt necessarily mean they dont truly believe.

Nothing is 100% altruistic.

Former Member

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Former Member

SuzyCreamcheese wrote:

I dont see how that means the same as people enjoying their religion and it bringing joy to their lives. Just because they get something out of it, doesnt necessarily mean they dont truly believe.

Nothing is 100% altruistic.

Well, apart from the obvious nutters, I don't see the harm in religion. It doesn't appeal to me personally, and I can't 'believe' in a god, but if it makes someone else happy- who am I to judge that? What I do question is, whether they 'believe' what they 'believe', and the answer to that question, either way, doesn't really bother me, or affect me significantly. I currently think that 'believers' believe because they like believing rather than actually believing, but hey, I don't know- I don't believe so I can't know.

Former Member

I see what you mean. I think you have to probably have that need to believe in something before a faith can actually take hold, the openness for that sort of thing that I just dont really have, but I still think they probably do believe in it.

Former Member

personally i find it really hard to believe in it. i read wher someone said it was like a comfort blanket, most people live in fear of what will happen after life, believing in god gives them all the securities they need to resolve their fears and prepare for death without being scared.

Former Member

This man believes

"I base a lot of my foreign policy decisions on some things that I think are true," he said. "One, I believe there's an Almighty. And, secondly, I believe one of the great gifts of the Almighty is the desire in everybody's soul, regardless of what you look like or where you live, to be free.

I believe liberty is universal. I believe people want to be free. And I know that democracies do not war with each other."

Former Member

Religious people are great, except for the fact that every time they get power, they want to kill you or turn you into a cultist or servant.

That being the case, the delusional idiots can get stuffed.

Teh_Gerbil

klintock wrote:

Religious people are great, except for the fact that every time they get power, they want to kill you or turn you into a cultist or servant.

That being the case, the delusional idiots can get stuffed.

You didn't go to the meet.

;(