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...and that, my hippy friend, is anarchism.
it's ok for you to post petty insults and throw away comments but no one else?
the pub is calling.
In Communes. Admitadley it has only worked small-scale. I doubt a leaderless system could work on a large scale. But to claim it does not work at all... is lieing.
Actually I'll qualify this - it is the roots of anarchism. Anarchism proper is an economic and social theory, based on people controlling their own workplaces and communities, not having to rely on representatives hundreds of miles away or bosses who only care about profit.
fuck...what do you think i was referring to ??? a group of people trying to get better working conditions?
He has been talking about this working on a global scale, it is insane for people to have their own control of certain areas.
Do you think people should set their own wages? choose their jobs?
and dont fucking say 'fgsdgsd where did i say that'?
You say people should have their own authority, that implies that noone should be setting their wages, they should be choosing them themselves, or maybe they could all come to an agreement on who was going to earn what?
What so anarchism is just teamwork and strength in numbers? People setting up a cooperative business isn't a move under a political theory it's just expanding the resources available to them by working together - it isn't contradicting or fighting against any current system or giving them any more control over their own lives - if anything it gives them less control as they are committed to another person and decisions are not entirely up to them.
And again im gonna ask - How are people not currently in control of their own lives?? DO you feel the government is restricting you? dont like to pay taxes or something?? Or is it that you cant get the job you want? Get some more fucking qualifications then.
From what i have derived from what you have very slowly and painfully said - anarchism allows people to have exactly what they want, and be in total control, along with having total authority over what they do.
WAIT a sec...how can you have total authority if i have total authority? maybe we should take it to a debate with non biased people like every other disbute in an anarchist society?
And the non-profit based companies? What exactly are the companies there for then? the good of the nation?? THe incentive to innovate and start new companies is profit - then in turn competitiion keeps prices low keeping consumers and organizations happy.
What happens in anarchism? The community agree on the price of every little item? the companies run to break even and gain nothing from it?
uh cant believe i have written all this, ure ideas are just such bs though and you really cant see it at all
----
Ignorance really is bliss i suppose...
It is insane for people to ahve control in certain areas? PEOPLE do now, just people who have been given far to much power, and no reigns. So people shouldn't set their own wages? We could do away with money entriley... use a barter system, and people come to an agreement. I'll give you five loaves of bread for ten rashers of bacon. They can negotiate. People have the ability to negotiate. We've done it for years and still do it today. This kindof thing does still go on it parts of the world.
As for jobs - people who can do it, do what needs to be done. If they have a skill that isn't needed in an area, they move somewhere else. Immigration, it happens all the time too. Right now Australia needs some more skilled tradesmen, so people are going there.
I, personally, think this kindof change would take a long, long, time to implement. Like changing to Democracy took bloody ages. But it would be possible.
Whose in control now? Robots?
The economy would be run under completely seperate lines, so "wages" and "jobs" wouldn't have the same meanings they do now.
No, but I am gonna say that you're still thinking about jobs and wages in capitalist terms.
Who sets wages now? Who sets wages in a co-op? Why do business owners/shareholders appropriate surplus value in profits? Why shouldn't workers actually own the shares and keep the profits themselves?
No, not "just". What the roots of it are though, is people sorting their own shit out, not waiting for someone with "authority" to do it.
I take it that you don't actually understand what a co-op is then.
Why don't you ask the women and children working in sweatshops in Indonesia making the clothes that you wear?
I seem to remember it was you saying you didn't have a job. I have a degree and enjoy my job thanks. Most people don't enjoy theirs, they have to work long hours for shit pay in shit conditions just to eat and have a roof over their heads.
No, what it does is give no one authority - it gives individuals autonomy.
What do you mean by "authority"? Political? Economic? Technical? What?
You never heard of non-profit companies?
You're still thinking in terms of capitalist economics.
Exchange value would be based on use value, not labour + profit
Yes, 'cos it never ever gained any popularity ever anywhere in recent history did it?
Robert Alexander - The Anarchists in the Spanish Civil War Vol. 1 p.102
You tell me.
Im not gona go through everything you said, but i keep talking about capitalism because it works ...I was showing you there was nothing wrong with whats going on now on the whole.
As for people in sweatshops ... Money goes a lot further there, and they are wiilling to work for that instead of having nothing. How would unskilled labour be used in anarchism? could they trade 6 eggs for a degree?
Also when i said its insane for people to be in control in certain areas, i meant as a whole instead of just a leader or a hierarchy.
Spanish civil war..ok, i thought anarchism would stop all war though? Or woudl they need a war to get into power? Then they could control everyone else that didn't like their ideas.
OK there are bad things about the way things work atm ...things like tariffs and import/export legislations arent helping 3rd world countries, but that because of personal greed and the want for more growth of some countries (human trait).
heh. This is no different to using money (in concept) ... i'll give you a ten pound note for this CD...Dont accept that? OK i'll go elsewhere - it's the same except the negotiations aren't physically needed... if company/consumer dont agree on a price, the consumer will go elsewhere. Competition makes this work and keeps consumers in agreement with company prices. The government makes sure noone gets an unfair advantage in competition.
Demand and supply sets wages now - if whoever is setting them doesnt follow this they wont get any efficient workers. There is no reason workers shouldn't own the shares, until someone with more resources comes along and one of the workers is willing to sell his share (be it for 5 loaves of bread or 6 chicken nuggets- whatever u would use).
Maybe noone has more resources than anyone else? Is this just communism in disguise? ;p
And you know, some people dont want to sort their own shit out ...not everyone wants more responsibility.
ps and yes ignorance definately is bliss - At least until you realise the consequences of what you're ignoring =p
But you don't have a job. Maybe when you do, you might feel differently.
Except that you've done nothing of the sort of course. In fact, I haven't seen you express much of an opnion on anything, apart from saying that "it will never work" and "you're ignorant".
So you're justifying sweatshops? :eek:
Maybe people wuld have an opportunity to get skills.
Eh?
Except you can't say why.
You obviously know nothing about it. Can I recommend Anthony Beevor's book?
Not a trait of capitalism thoough eh? See this is the point - capitalism actually rewards traits like greed and want for more growth.
I'm not arguing for a barter system.
Not quite. The need to make a profit sets wages.
You've missed the point. What is the driving force of capitalism?
How do people get to monopolise resources now?
Well spotted. Yes, it is libertarian communism.
Why do you think that is?
You'd know I guess.
Quick question to the people can't be trusted lot.
What's so special about the people who run our current system?
Does calling them prime minister or whatever suddenly make them better people or something?
If people can't be trusted what runs the government? Scotch eggs?
How?
No it isnt, though they are traits that help drive capitalism, yes. We arent going to get rid of these traits, just the presence of them totally undermines anarchism, hence it wouldnt work.
then what..exactly.. are you arguiing for? We wouldnt use money, we wouldnt use trade...what
Err and competition drives them up.
Through innovation and work..along with maybe unfair business tactics. None of these will go away in anarchism.
Left something out there to make your come back work?
and @ klintock
Well we vote them in, if we don't like them, we vote them out. THere is nothing that special about them except that they are willing to get the job done. Noone is saying they are better than us... Run for PM yourself maybe if you dont like how it is now? Or dont you want that responsibilty?
Errrrmmmm...let me think. Hmmmm...
By being trained perhaps?
errrr...capitalism doesn't reward greed. Hmmmm...
No, you're wrong.
Totally simplistic thinking there, also ignoring previous posts of mine.
Do you think people's views, outlook and behaviour is influenced by their material conditions? Yes/no.
I think you'll find that I haven't argued against markets at all.
No, it usually drives them down.
No, through force at the end of the day.
Where have I argued against innovation?
Eh?
How touchingly naive of you.
And if no one voted they would pack up and stop doing business?
How is this choosing every five years superior to a deal I can end at any time I choose to go elsewhere for my services?
How is it superior to a deal where I can choose which services I want and pay for voluntarily?
Whether you want that job doing or not. :rolleyes: No, what;'s special about them is they are willing to pick up a gun to force you to do what they want. It's not exactly a special talent or something we should cherish, is it?
No, I want self determination for me and self determination for you. That means you keeping your hand out of my pocket to pay for things you want yourself and me extending you the same courtesy. I don't want some anonymous crackpot with a lust for domination and his own agenda making decisions about the minutae of my life.
These fuckers decide what jobs you do, whether your plug has three pins or two, what your children will be brainwashed into believing and how much of your productive time and ebergy will be spent every year buying bombs to kill kids in some place you have never heard of and never will.
Compared to the discomfort of having to provide actually beneficial services on a voluntary basis to each other I think the choive is pretty clear.
we are talking about the labour market. if one company offers ppl 50k to do a job and one offers 5k people are gona go to the better wage.
cba with the rest you didnt understand what i was getting at, and probably never will.
klintock -
who is picking up a gun and telling you what job to have?? we dont live in china, what you describe there sounds more like what i have herad about anarchism.
ok..Are you in a position to decide how the police and fire service should be run for example? Or to decide how you should be treated in hospital?
yeah u can moan about the things like having less power over the jobs you want and how the government sets all the rules. If you look at the wider picture there are so many things that you do have power over and that you arent in a position to make educated decisions about/have authority over.
Although of course, in the real world, most people don't have the luxury of being able to pick and choose what job they have. You're also ignoring the fact that competition between firms means minimising costs - labour costs being the most easy to control.
You're gonna have some harsh lessons coming when you leave university.
These ideas can be difficult to get your head around when you first encounter them - all your life its been drummed into you that the world just doesn't work that way.
Not in this country any more (people are forced by economic circumstance instead), but it happens in developing economies.
Forget what you're heard about anarchism and find out what it actually means.
Why the hell would I care about how the police and fire service are run?
Does not knowing the ins and out's of Burger King's production methods mean you can't buy a burger?
Your talking out of your hat, man.
Only thing I am after is the ability to sack them when they fuck up or fail, and hold them accountable for their actions in general. As individuals, to me, financially. If some system with competitition in it could be arranged to drive down prices, then that would be great too.
Yeah, but I can pick and choose who I go to for that expert advice, can't I?
And hold them accountable if they fuck up, sack them, get in new people if I want to. If theres a better accountability than not getting paid if you don't do a good job I would like to hear it.
The same people who set things up so that you must use their schools, obtain their qualifications, and agree with what they say, or at least act like you agree with what they say. Not only that, but they are willing to use kidnap, theft and violence to get you to obey them. They also decide what you will be paid in (legal tender) and how much of it you must give back to them for the "service" of bombing fallujah or whatever.
All laws depend on the willingness of someone to be violent towards someone else. We are talking about a group of killers thieves and liars who will use violence because they can't get jobs that people will pay them for voluntarily. If you can give me factual differences between the government and the mafia I would love to hear them.
Wow, you made a post out of more than four words. :thumb:
I do quite often - they mostly get ignored.
Chill your boots. You do come across as arrogant mos of the time because of the way you post.
And Mr Roll... Quit with the arguing it ain't worth it.
There are reasons why people from other forums don't want to post here...
If you are the judge of when people fuck up you could just not pay whatever they did.
heh ... You think people kill others because they couldnt get a job? half the time its because they are FUCKED in the head or they want revenge cos their love life didnt work out or something. When I think of thieves i think of the guys u see dropping out of school as early as possible cos they couldnt be arsed with the work.
Government - pays for ure healthcare.
mafia - they dont do that do they? there u go theres a difference.
You two sound like you have been brainwashed! Someone been teaching you about the anarchist paradise? maybe soon youll be suicide bombing for the cause? :shocking:
No, taxpayers pay for your healthcare.
What's the mafia got to do with it?
How old are you? 13?
P.S.
klintock isn't an anarchist by any stretch of the imagination. He's a free market capitalist.
Anyway ... whoever indoctrinated you seems to have done a good job so i guess we'll just have to agree that we both have a very different perspective of the world and leave it at that
No. If you had a legitiamte obligation, there is a thing we have called contract law. It's how it's supposed to work now, but the courts are owned by the govrernment so you have no chance.
No, didn't say that. I said that government provides servides that no one would voluntarily pay for, because the people who work for it tend to be ones that can't hack it in the private sector.
No mate, most murders are commited by governmnet agencies. Around 200million in the last century, if you tot up all the wars and so on.
Not in the US. And there is no reason why it does so over here. But, let's have a look at it from "big vinny's" point of view. He's got this nice protection racket going, where the people in his "territory" are paying him hand over fist. Life is good. In the back of his mind though, he knows that those people aren't happy with him doing this. So he decides to start giving to charity, setting up hospitals, because this makes his theiving look good and even to some idiots neccessary.
It works out well. The people who go to his hospitals live longer and so can work for his benefit and pleasure longer. From time to time problems occur, killing his source of revenue, so he arranges for laws to be passed protecting his "investment". In order to accurately find out how much he should be stealing, he wants to now how many of you there are. So he brings in the birth certificate, to find out how many people he has. When people are inujured in road acidents, he arranges for a law to be passed about seat belts, because making theft l;ook good is eating into his profits when they claim for disability. And so on.
If you look at most government laws, they are about protecting the investment that the people are thought of as. We are a resource, like iron or coal to them.
ERRRR!!! Wrong!. I don't believe in the "free market" either, and I despise capitalism also. If anything I am a panarchist or maybe a voluntaryist.
Have you ever heard of the concept of "ideology" or "hegemony"? What it is, is the things in society that are seen as "common sense" and "just the way things are". Interesting thing about ideology is that most people aren't aware of it - they just accept it as a given. The ideology of a society is formed by the people in charge and transmitted by the everyday media and culture. What you are encountering on this thread is people challenging the ideology of the society you live in - you respond by saying that we've been brainwashed; well that maybe so, but you have to realise that your position is also the product of an ideology that you're not even aware of.
Check these out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Gramsci
Errrr...on the debate about LTV you were certainly arguing a free market position - you even called yourself an "anarcho-capitalist" (which of course, is a contradiction in terms).
www.iwca.info