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Faith school controversy

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Although not C of E or Christian I attended a C of E primary/first school.

    I don’t remember it being particularly religious at all, there were a few hymns and stuff but not much else. I think even state non-religious primary schools have to have hymns and assemblies of a broadly Christian nature? Anyway I don’t remember it ever being an issue at all.

    From what I hear most C of E schools are pretty watered-down and non-Christians/atheists don’t feel particularly out of place. I’d guess Christians/atheists would feel a little more out of place at Muslim schools. Maybe that's because there's more of a focus on Islam at Muslims schools. Don't really know though.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    I received sex eduation at primary school, doesn't everyone? :confused:
    What form did it take? Were you told that homosexuality was wrong, or that abortion is murder?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Noooooooo, but then I was at a bog standard state school and it would have been a bit weird if I did......... :confused:

    We were told the scientific facts about sex etc when I was 10, I thought everyone did......... :confused:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    No there is not a big demand but following your logic it should be allowed, I disagree.
    My logic only extends to keeping the status quo, rather than inventing bizarre fantasy scenarios.
    It is not beyond beleif that people would want to set up a school promoting certain ideologies that may be distastedful to the rest of society, should they be allowed?
    Give me an example. Home schooling is presently legal - would you rather parents were not given the right to educate their own children according to their own beliefs in what schooling should involve.
    Do you think there should be a central curriculum?
    I don't object to the National Curriculum, but it's not perfect.
    Should we be teaching creationism?
    People should be allowed to make their own minds up about such matters of opinion, based on their own knowledge and understanding. So I certainly wouldn't advocate the removal of the theories of intelligent design or evolution from primordial slime.
    Lots of issues to do with parents vs state in the education of their children.

    I think it is fair to say there should be a balance between what individual parents want their kids to be taught and what society/government wants them to be taught, it is hard to say..........
    What is school for?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    We were told the scientific facts about sex etc when I was 10, I thought everyone did......... :confused:
    Were you taught how to put on a condom, or what Chlamydia is? Or was it the absolute basics?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can't remember precisely to be honest, just the basics I think, certainly nought about STDs......
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    Give me an example. Home schooling is presently legal - would you rather parents were not given the right to educate their own children according to their own beliefs in what schooling should involve.

    People should be allowed to make their own minds up about such matters of opinion, based on their own knowledge and understanding. So I certainly wouldn't advocate the removal of the theories of intelligent design or evolution from primordial slime.

    Actually I don't think that parent sshould have the unique right to their childs education so I would be extremely distrustful of home education although I assume they have to stick to certain guidelines.......

    The main point is that parents do not 'own' their children in anyway that gives them these kind of unique rights in their education.

    Do you not beleive that their are certain values and principles that all children should be instilled with as much as possible for the good of society?

    I also can't see how you can deffend the teaching of intelligent design, would you be happy with your kids being taught lies? What if your kids history teacher was teaching holocaust revisionism, would you be happy with that?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    Actually I don't think that parent sshould have the unique right to their childs education so I would be extremely distrustful of home education although I assume they have to stick to certain guidelines.......

    The main point is that parents do not 'own' their children in anyway that gives them these kind of unique rights in their education.
    The implication of what you are saying is that the State does 'own' the child, or has more rights over the child's education than the parents. It's a bit naive.
    Do you not beleive that their are certain values and principles that all children should be instilled with as much as possible for the good of society?
    I think you overestimate the influence of schools over fundamental beliefs actually. That goes for religion and anti-religion too.
    I also can't see how you can deffend the teaching of intelligent design, would you be happy with your kids being taught lies? What if your kids history teacher was teaching holocaust revisionism, would you be happy with that?
    Like I say, it should be based on evidence and knowledge. If Holocaust revisionism was taught as a reality then no, but as a phenomenon, yes, of course.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the double standards worry me.
    some people attacking the state in some threads for taking away our freedoms but in threads like this one ...always shouting and screaming about how the state knows best.
    well i for one have children who have varied views from each other.
    one is an adamant creationist ...based on the facts ...another is an ardent accidental everything evolusionist based on a lot of wishful thinking.
    how dare some of you say that someone cannot teach their own children what they wish within reason?
    if someone sees abortion as murder ...fervently feels it ...whyu the hell should the state be allowed to interfere?
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    morrocan roll wrote:
    the double standards worry me.
    some people attacking the state in some threads for taking away our freedoms but in threads like this one ...always shouting and screaming about how the state knows best.

    You notice too? :D Im not alone!

    I say the state knows best if the state is well run. Ours is quite possibly worse run than Putin's. Although Moscow now has the highest concentration of Millionares anywhere...

    Who's laughing now?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    morrocan roll wrote:
    the double standards worry me.
    some people attacking the state in some threads for taking away our freedoms but in threads like this one ...always shouting and screaming about how the state knows best.
    well i for one have children who have varied views from each other.
    one is an adamant creationist ...based on the facts ...another is an ardent accidental everything evolusionist based on a lot of wishful thinking.
    how dare some of you say that someone cannot teach their own children what they wish within reason?
    if someone sees abortion as murder ...fervently feels it ...whyu the hell should the state be allowed to interfere?

    The point is...education shouldn't be used to shape someone's faith or religious belief. It should be a personal matter.

    Remove fanaticism from education and replace it with informed consideration, that is the best method.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    it strikes me that more and more people have become seriously damaged and deluded.
    i want the freedom to be different than most of the normals ...seems that too is becoming an offence even in the minds of those who think they are standing up for freedom.
    i've always distanced myself from the latest version of normal and feel the need to do so ever more ...especialy after having read some of the views in this thread.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    The point is...education shouldn't be used to shape someone's faith or religious belief. It should be a personal matter.

    Remove fanaticism from education and replace it with informed consideration, that is the best method.
    i couldn't agree more.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i think religion and schools should be VERY seperate. It causes all sorts of problems.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jonny8888 wrote:
    i think religion and schools should be VERY seperate. It causes all sorts of problems.
    totaly agree.
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Case in Question: US Schools not teaching Evolution because it is unchristian.

    Stupid, can't learn fact because Religion contradicts it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    Case in Question: US Schools not teaching Evolution because it is unchristian.

    Stupid, can't learn fact because Religion contradicts it.
    evolution is far from fact but teaching only one or the other is totaly wrong.
    what the hell is wrong these days with debate?
    teaching only one ...is brain washing.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    morrocan roll wrote:
    evolution is far from fact but teaching only one or the other is totaly wrong.
    what the hell is wrong these days with debate?
    teaching only one ...is brain washing.
    but the issue isn't about which is true. The issue is where each subject should be taught. There is no place for a debate between the two because one uses the scientific process and the other does not. Both require faith to believe in them but trying to argue which one is better is like comparing apples and oranges.

    I remember when I was younger, got myself kicked out of class because I kept arguing with the teacher, I was convinced that god had made earth. Now I am getting kicked out of class because I debate the other side. Ultimately the only debate that can take place on the matter is one conducted by a single person choosing which to believe.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    AllAmericanRageJunky wrote:
    but the issue isn't about which is true. The issue is where each subject should be taught. There is no place for a debate between the two because one uses the scientific process and the other does not. Both require faith to believe in them but trying to argue which one is better is like comparing apples and oranges.

    I remember when I was younger, got myself kicked out of class because I kept arguing with the teacher, I was convinced that god had made earth. Now I am getting kicked out of class because I debate the other side. Ultimately the only debate that can take place on the matter is one conducted by a single person choosing which to believe.
    most creationists are not the wishy washy blind faith brigade a lot of you seem to imagine.
    most creationists look to scienctific principals rather than blindly accept some words from an old book.
    a good education should surely be basd on a lot of debate ...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    We don't live in the US. :confused:
    That doesn't stop many US trends arriving and settling here does it? Some of them rather less desirable than others...
    Maybe you should base your 'feelings' on fact...that being the point you are trying to make, after all.
    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1544143,00.html
    Seeing as most classically faith based schools are primary schools, I think this is pretty much irrelevant. 10 year olds don't need detailed sex education, unless there are local sociological reasons to provide it.
    One look at a newspaper any other day of the year should make you rethink that...
    Is history not based on fact?
    Not always, no. When talking about planet-wise floods and arks full of animals or an entire species created overnight and descended from a single couple (two name but just two such instances), you can be entirely sure that 'facts' are not involved in any way in such claims.
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    A good education is about keeping an open mind, whislt accepting that one theory has better evidence to support it than the other.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    A good education is about keeping an open mind, whislt accepting that one theory has better evidence to support it than the other.
    how do you get to decide which theory has the best evidence to support it if you only get one side?
    debate is sadly missing it would seem.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    A good education is about keeping an open mind, whislt accepting that one theory has better evidence to support it than the other.
    i always thought i had a bad education but you've reminded me of the furious debates that were encouraged.
    debates that forced you to question things rather than believe the current view.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Because one of them is science and the other one isn't.

    Religious education classes already have the chance to put their case forward. There is no need for such beliefs to invade other areas of education, be science, history or biology.

    The so-called intelligent design 'theory' is not a scientific Theory of any kind: it's window-dressed Creationism, nothing else.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    The so-called intelligent design 'theory' is not a scientific Theory of any kind: it's window-dressed Creationism, nothing else.
    oh how your flying in the face of an ever growing number of scientists from many fields of research!

    goodnight and god bless ...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    morrocan roll wrote:
    most creationists are not the wishy washy blind faith brigade a lot of you seem to imagine.
    most creationists look to scienctific principals rather than blindly accept some words from an old book.
    a good education should surely be basd on a lot of debate ...
    but no matter how closely they try to tie creationsim to science their argument still boils down to this....

    "We aren't saying that 'god' created life... just that it was started by somone who has the basic knowledge of how to create and run the universe...and that could be nearly anyone".

    I mean honeslty :rolleyes:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    morrocan roll wrote:
    oh how your flying in the face of an ever growing number of scientists from many fields of research!

    goodnight and god bless ...
    :no:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    AllAmericanRageJunky wrote:
    but no matter how closely they try to tie creationsim to science their argument still boils down to this....

    "We aren't saying that 'god' created life... just that it was started by somone who has the basic knowledge of how to create and run the universe...and that could be nearly anyone".

    I mean honeslty :rolleyes:
    you know some very wiered peoplple ...i realy am going to bed now ...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    morrocan roll wrote:
    oh how your flying in the face of an ever growing number of scientists from many fields of research!

    goodnight and god bless ...
    Many more seem to be dismayed (or even plain outraged) at the shameless attempt to pass 'intelligent design' as science.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,,1559743,00.html
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Many more seem to be dismayed (or even plain outraged) at the shameless attempt to pass 'intelligent design' as science.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,,1559743,00.html
    read it a couple of weeks back.
    doesn't actualy add anything at all to the evolusionists argument.
    theres nothing scientific in the piece at alll ...just a very frustrated attack on inteligent design ....goodnight.
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