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Yeah, of course we have. At the moment though men are being conned into thinking there is something wrong with enjoying the beauty of good looking women and to be this horrible halfy-halfy fucked >metrosexual< up mess.
It's also ludicrous of women to expect men to act as though they aren't attracted to what they are attracted to. That's where the peoblem lies, in expecting men to basically, not be men. Or to be ashamed of what they are.
No.
I'd hope so, but in the mean time its really unhealthy. Look at Playboy marketing stuff to kids etc. Its a product of capitalism and something that Marx pointed out over 150 years ago - relationships are transformed into commercial transactions. Only last night my flat mate was on about "being in the market" for a woman and being "in competition" with other blokes. This is profoundly dehumanising. As companies seek to constantly expand markets and constantly increase profit, we're going to see more of this in future I reckon.
Yes, it has, and longer. However it is only relatively recently that it has become more socially acceptable and available and more and more violent.
Thats a simplistic answer though - the internet is a communication tool, thats all. So what are the social, economic and cultural processes that lead to porn becoming more violent and socially acceptable?
A branch off from the 60's hippy movement? where sexual freedom was generally accepted and celebrated, then porn moguls used that to their own means in the following decades.
Oh yes, I'm perfectly aware that some people seek self-validation in such a way. I don't think they are happy deep down though, human beings tend to feel valued more for something they've achieved rather than an accident of nature.
Yes, does this make it a desirable thing?
well it seems to be rather popular
Does this make it right? And its not just in the media, its in the whole way that society treats women - women are socialised to be looked at ("male gaze") in a way that men aren't.
Thats not really what I'm mean.
You've lost me.
No, thats not what I mean.
Still too simplistic. Totally ignores any economics.
Personally, I don't believe that I should not be the primary breadwinner because I have a vagina. Also, aren't men just as capable of raising children as women? Perhaps then we're facing a nature vs. nurture debate.
I disagree with the original point of the thread and am about to watch the program about women in the BBC to see whether the guy has a point, or whether he feels threatened now because of female equality.
Maybe because the economic system doesn't have anything to do with it in the end?
As far as I am aware porn is accepted and is as widely available in the social democracies of europe as it is in the more capitalist US?
As for your friend talking about competing for a woman, this is urely a fact of nature, males always compete for females and often vice versa also........
Where does economics fit into the equation then?
Where doesn't it? Its a billion dollar industry for a start.
Are you serious?
Europe is capitalist.
I've certainly never "competed" for a woman.
what about the people who lend it to their mates? or the people who run small sites that list free things?
Irrelevant, and free porn sites are funded by adverts, advertising pay porn sites.
Are you denying its a billion dollar industry?
Ok, sex is a billion dollar industry. Why does it have to be more violent then? Where does economics fit into that equation?
You're trying to say you didn't buy your girlfriend off e-bay :razz:
I didn't say economics was the only factor. But markets always need to expand, look for something fresh, something new.
Do they not reflect demand though. Public sick off semi-hardcore sex, give them hardcore. I don't think it's a deliberate ploy by these corporations to degrade women even further, they're doing it because we want them to do it. Well sort of anyway
Again, its not so simple a relationship. I don't think that late capitalism operates purely on market demand - companies and advertising also create desire. I mean, who the hell wanted a phone with a camera in until they were advertised? And no, I don't think it's necessarily a deliberate ploy (although some of the stuff on the net is sick beyond belief, Max Hardcore etc), but its the outcome of a market driven business*. Its selling human beings as if they were pieces of meat, I don't know about you, but to me, that shit ain't right.
[edit]
*by this I don't necessarily mean a market demand, what I mean is the need for companies to continually expand markets and to increase profit.
Fair enough, I think with the sex industry it's a mixture of the two tbh.
Yea it may not be right but sex sells, that's the reality, not much you can do about it.
You appear to have completely missed the point, but never mind, I got to the shop to get some dinner.
What point have I missed?
Also, telling a man he has to work and can't be sensitive is as bad as telling a woman she can't work or adopt any 'male' traits. Men are just as oppressed by society as women are, but it appears that it's consumerism that's oppressing them, it's the media and secularisation.
Its not just that "sex sells", its that capitalism has commodified human beings and human relationships. People are treated as commodities to be bought and sold, relationships have been reified, treated as material goods to be bought and sold. As The Pop Group sang in 1979 - we are all prostitutes.
Yes, this is very true. The changes in the labour market over the past 20 or so years, with more women working etc, is partly a result of feminism, but also a result of capitalist neo-liberal policies.
Ulitimately its an economic system that rewards competition, individualism and expolitation that oppresses men and women, i.e. capitalism.
I agree, I wasn't saying "sex sells" as a belief, I said it as an observation in relation to a common perception we all have these days, and there's nothing we can do about that perception to the masses.
So some men dress "camp" and groom themselves regularly. Wow. What relation does that have to my post?
Because it's fashionable and different to how men used to be. Do you think that in the fifties men went to get their cuticles done?
Almost certainly...it was a different society back then, it's hardly as though males developed this new metrosexual gene in the past decade. It's just acceptable these days, and I think it's down to attitudes among society