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The Bush family Nazi connection

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy, you are a real character.........have you been watching american news perhaps? your outlook on bush is still pretty rosy considering all the figures quoted by aladdin........even if the exact figures arent right, surely the general trend shows Bush to be one of the worst leaders ever, never mind America. how can you not see this?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I simply believe that President Bush is better than the alternative, John Kerry. He is a man who's changed his mind repeatedly on so many issues. Such a person can't be trusted to run the world.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    LOL. The typical neo-con sign of desperation: if the facts make unpleasant reading, deny them and accuse the source of lying.

    I could explain to you that most of those figures can be found anywhere else, and that in fact many of them come from the Bush administration you admire so, but what would be the point eh?

    Is it worth for me to point out the 'achievements' of the Iraqi war, the lies about the WMDs and links to terrorism, the 12,000+ civilians killed by the US so far or the ever deteriorating conditions in the country, or are you also going to pretend the facts and figures are lies and that it is all a left-wing liberal anti-American conspiracy?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Actually, it's interesting that there still isn't an official body-count for civilians in Iraq yet, I wonder why.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Iraq is a much safer country without Saddam Hussein. That was one of the major reasons that the USA and Britain went to war. We should be proud of liberating Iraq from this tyrant, and bringing democracy to the country. We should not apologise for the conflict - to do that would be insincere.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Bollocks. In fact we've destabilised and entire region. Iraq also has no history or habit of democracy. Why would they remain that way, and lets face it, it's not necessarily the best system for them, now that we've impossed it on them by force.

    You'll be democratic or we'll invade and kill you. Fucking great example. All we had to do was let the weapons inspectors finish their job, but that would have made Bush look like a plank wouldn't it?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Had it been left-wingers in charge of the USA, the war would never have happened, thousands of Iraqis would still be living under tyranny and the world would still be pacifying this dictator.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by stargalaxy
    Had it been left-wingers in charge of the USA, the war would never have happened, thousands of Iraqis would still be living under tyranny and the world would still be pacifying this dictator.

    Exactly, if the democrats were still in charge, and they should be, they won the election democratically, then the region would be stable, the inspectors would have returned and Saddam would still be close to death. It's not the job of the USA and it's poodles to conquer the globe because they don't understand.

    Hey, you're not right-wing clones, we must invade.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    you're right you shouldnt apologise for the conflict, because that would mean admitting that mighty america got it all wrong.......you think Iraq is a safer place now? well you're definitely watching american news then.......why is america so bothered about spreading democracy to iraq when they support repressive elites all over the world, namely Saudi Arabia?.......ive yet to meet one bush lover who can explain that.......its quite simple really, the Saudis prop up the already shaky American economy so democracy for them will just have to wait.....cmon dude open your eyes.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    These are all difficult questions, to whom the answers are held by the Bush administration. The only news I watch at the moment is the anti-American reporting on the BBC. The trouble with Bush is you either like him or you hate him. That said, I do agree that the supporting of oppressive regimes like Saudi Arabia is wrong. I'm not going to defend that.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    so you agree with me that spreading democracy and ridding iraq of dictatorship is nothing more than a convenient pretext? yes.......?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think you'll find that the BBC are remarkably neutral. One instance in the history of the organisation when they've made a mistake.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, I agree with that analysis. I supported the war for two reasons: (1) British troops are involved, (2) To get rid of Saddam Hussein. I know that was technically an illegal aim, but we are better off without this mass murderer.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You can support the troops with out supporting the war. And all we've done is swap one murderer for another. And saddam was nothing to do with us. By the same standard we should have invaded a dozen countries by now, like zimbabwe.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    can you explain exactly how we are better off?..........and dont forget the usa put him there in the first place, he just came back to bite you in the bum.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Who is free exactly? Everyone is in exactly the same condition if not worse.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It is correct to say the USA put Saddam Hussein where he is now, but this is no longer of any relevance. The circumstances in the early 1960s, when the process started, were very different to those we have in 2004.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    yes, funny that. We put Saddam were he was, but with the Gulf War we hung the rebels that were chasing Saddam out to dry. If we'd supported them, it never would have gone this far. Not only that, another war that you may have forgotten about by now, considering the coverage. Afganistan, we put the Taliban in control there too. Since we invaded them the opium trade is now operating at full capacity. Brilliant.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by stargalaxy
    Had it been left-wingers in charge of the USA, the war would never have happened, thousands of Iraqis would still be living under tyranny and the world would still be pacifying this dictator.
    No doubt lack of space prevented you from mentioning that the right wingers in charge of the USA couldn't give a shit about the poor Iraqis living under tyranny during the 80s, when Rumsfeld was shaking hands with that great friend of the West Saddam Hussein and even supplied all those terrible chemical weapons we keep hearing about.

    Face it: the US government has never given a toss about the welfare of the Iraqis, and even if you think the war was a good thing you should at least admit that the reasons we went to war had absolutely nothing to do with safety, security, freedom or human rights.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree that the USA did not pay sufficient attention to Afghanistan, but I stand by my support of the Iraq war.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    Face it: the US government has never given a toss about the welfare of the Iraqis, and even if you think the war was a good thing you should at least admit that the reasons we went to war had absolutely nothing to do with safety, security, freedom or human rights.

    Yes, I agree with this. It was to do with Bush getting revenge on the man who tried to kill his father. And possibly one or two other things that the public don't know about.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Right, so let me get this straight, in the space of a couple of pages you've admited that you're wrong and Bush is a wanker. And are undemining with all your admissions your own support of an illegal war.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, I don't admit to being wrong over the war. Bush is indeed something of a wanker, but that's not the point.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh right, so it's actually that you don't have any idea what you're talking about then.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This debate really isn't important. What is important now is that we make Iraq into a safer country than it is now.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by stargalaxy
    Perhaps we can now discuss the many achievement

    Such as pulling out of Kyoto? Looney.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    On the subject of Bush's links to Nazism, I have to agree with those who recognise the irrelevance of this to George W's presidency. Let's face it, there are probably hundreds of thousands of Germans alive today who can trace Nazi involvement in their own families, but Germans were generally anti-war.

    You cannot possibly imply that Bush is guilty of hypocrisy by judging good and evil on the basis of his grandfather's political past. Buch is a fundamentalist Christian and is quite happy for that to be known - it's a vote-winner in many states. If you disagree with that, fair enough, but don't let that be the reason for hating him. His main fault in my eyes is insular thinking - i.e. putting America on a pedestal - it's a kind of arrogance and I find it repulsive.

    In terms of the rights and wrongs of the Iraq war, Bush is imho guilty of greed. Not only oil, although that must have played a part, but power. It seems to me that he is desperate for his place in the history books, and Iraq was intended to be his crowning achievement. Americans needed a scapegoat after Sept11 and when Afghanistan went quiet, Iraq became the subject of their rage, and it has just snowballed into chaos since then.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Pulling out of the Kyoto treaty was indeed a mistake. I believe the decision was taken in self-interest.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by stargalaxy
    This debate really isn't important. What is important now is that we make Iraq into a safer country than it is now.
    star ...go read a bit about iraq over the last 30 years ...
    then come back and tell us how the country is better off.
    it scares the shit out of me that minds like yours actualy exist!
    go and read up about the old people starving to death because of the trillin dollar tax cuts ...which mean individual states can no longer pay for home care for the elderly. or heating. or social service visits. go and talk to the workers dumped on the dole ...that now has no means of paying them anything at all so the lines for the soup kitchens get bigger by the day ...soup ktchens in middle class areas at that!
    talk to us about the people who have had their pensions stopped ...completely.
    talk to us about the people who have no health care insurance at all ...all cos of the trillion dollar tax cuts.
    america is not the big shiny land of the free that you see on the telly.
    the reality of america since bush ...would truly shock you.
    i suggest you take the cotton wool out of your ears and shove it in your mouth ...you might learn something.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by stargalaxy
    I believe the decision was taken in self-interest.

    I'd not expect him to do anything else.
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