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People are pissed off. And fortunately for them, you don't see middle aged bankers hanging around on street corners swearing at people. You do see groups of 20-something year old men doing it. The "Elite" might be stealing food from our table, but they're doing it quietly and without throwing dog shit at your door. Much easier to hate something you can see.
Chav is not used as a term of endearment, it's an insult, which does make it different to emo or goth or whatever. But I don't necessarily think it's an insult against "poor" people or "working class" people, it's an insult against a certain type of free-loading parasite. We all know exactly what type of person we mean, the one who opens his tin of lager the second he's on the bus, the one who's always begging for change by the bus station, the one who is yelling abuse at someone in the shopping centre because they won't "lend" him a tab.
But I do know what you mean. There is a tendency for the rahrah public school twats at this university to decide that anyone who isn't also a rahrah public school twat is poor and straight off Jeremy Kyle.
Complete cognitive dissonance.
Its also making a huge assumption that people who DO notice chavs, and actually have a name for this style, do so with any malignant intent. Most people either just distance themselves and keep the hell out of their way, or just see it as a fact of life and are indifferent.
Snobbish is a loaded term in itself and not accurate. I dont see myself as more worthy of anything than these people. I dont have any more money than these people. Im probably not even much more formally educated than these people, but i am different to the people id call chavs. I have a different upbringing, a different attitude, different aspirations, different culture.
I think its a bloody shame and its a cycle. I also dont have the energy or ability to do anything about it, and I think its a shame the council estates are pretty much ghettoes and these peoples norms is all they see and it will never change for the majority.
Im also aware and realistic enough that they dont give a fuck about my sympathy and are perfectly happy with all theyve ever known.
We do have a class society. We have a more structured class system than many countries and less than many others. Most other countries find our class system unfathomable as its not even really about financial status. It just IS.
In some ways i even find it comforting (controversial) but it still leaves a lot to be desired. Am willing to be educated on this as im not sure this is A. Good. Thing.
Not sure where im even going with this now
I am also quite cross in general that noticing crime patterns in certain subcultures is met with silencing and accusations of prejudice.
If I see somebody wearing a tracksuit and drinking a can of stella I don't presume they are unemplyoed layabout wankers. That's lazy and offensive thinking.
Of course I make snapshot judgements on appearance, it's a natural thing for us to do, but I also recognise that these judgments are more than often wrong and that it's worth giving people a chance. This place has taught me that. We have people here from all walks chatting and generally being quite freindly, when irl some would definitley try to avoid others.
You don't have to look far to see the vicious undertones of chav bashing. That website I linked to is full of hate for the unemployed council estate single mothers on benifits who wear tracksuits and have large hopped earings.The website shows that it is a class thing for a great number of people.
Same with Jeremy Kyle. People wathc it because it makes them feel better about themselves, to laugh and poke fun at the less fortunate, the Victorian freek show never went away.
Is that a bit like "Nigger is only an insult if a white person is saying it"?
I have no idea what I am then. I dislike (not hate) the stereotype of 'chav' and yes I have used it as an insult as well as a descriptive and on occasion a term of endearment.
But I'm certainly not middle-class and I'd hate for anyone to think I was trying to be it. I've spent periods of my life out of work and yes when I was younger, at times I wasn't in all that much of a hurry to find work.
I dislike certain aspects of 'middle class' too and I'm certainly no chav.
If people are convinced it's all a class thing then I'd love to know which I belong to in their world.
Agreed 100%. With you on that totally.
I would shake you by the hand for that. It's exactly where I'm coming from. It appears some people are unwilling to admit they judge on appearances and have certain pre-conceived ideas about the world in case they lose their "I'm so trendy I simply don't judge ANYBODY darling" gimmick.
Yes I judge on appearances. This is an explanation not and excuse but this is more down to my ADHD. I have great difficulty in recognising certain social factors in people. This means I find it much easier to group certain people together in ways that others may (on the surface) take as 'ignorant prejudice' or whatever. But it's not like that. By accepting that I happily 'label' people I also accept I could be wrong and them and am always happy to proven wrong about it. No not in a "Come on, prove me wrong!" kind of way.
Thing is before 'chav' became the go-to word for these people, we simply referred to them as 'dole bums' and the lefties didn't seem to get too up in arms about that.
It funny you mention ADHD.
I've heard people connect the stereotype chav and condition ADHD before.
Check out some of the results of a quick google search
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=adhd+chavs&oq=adhd+chavs&gs_l=hp.3...1197.2977.0.3316.10.10.0.0.0.0.337.1585.1j8j0j1.10.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.3.psy-ab.72m1Ot1A7II&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42452523,d.d2k&fp=11b5af3d17f1fe3&biw=1904&bih=959
All of which of course is absolute bollocks.
well then youre the same as me, except I have a name for a certain group of them, which has fairly fluid definitions, but doesnt always mean what you think i think it means, so whos lazy? I dont presume someone in a tracksuit drinking lager is unemployed unless of course theyre drinking it at 2pm.
Wearing a tracksuit, drinking stella and smoking a fag while pushing a pushchair at 2pm, then id almost certainly think chav.
Its not because I hate poor people. Money has got fuck all to do with it.
And so presumably that person is also violent as you previously defined chavs as such?
How does drinking a stella pushing a wheelchair and smoking a fag lead you to the belief that this person is violent? It's a jump.
I understand that it's human nature to make assumptions and we make judgements on appearance but I always thinks it's best to try not to presume anything about anybody if I can. I can't see a good argument for making presumptions about poeple in that way.
Well it would seem a great many people do think money and social standing have a great deal to do with it, again I direct you to that website.
Even in this thread there has been mention of the jobless, council house tenants, single mothers on benifits etc
It has been my experience that chav is mainly directed at people from the poorer areas of society.
It doesn't mean you hate those people, but why is it different from fag? Or retard? Or nigger? Surely I can like fags and not think they're all immoral lunatics (just some of them) and say there's some fags the other end of the bar there because we all know what a fag looks like don't we? Why pretend a fag isn't a fag? Middle class hand wringing? What about the niggers in the shopping centre? Why be politically correct when we know that they're the likely ones to stab someone or mug someone or steal something?
Words have power which is why we learn to be careful with the words we use. Chav is all about assigning someone to a group identity which has negative connotations, we don't tolerate it elsewhere so I don't know why we tolerate it here. Maybe there's a distinction I'm not getting. Maybe you can choose to not be a chav vs being unable to choose whether or not you're a retard? I dunno.
Can you really help where you are born? Social mobility isn't that great in this country and if you're born on a council estate then the social uniform is quite often a tracksuit.
If you were born to a single mother living on benefits in a council flat on a run down estate your chances really aren't that great. Chances are you're going to end up the same as your parents. Of course it is possible to change and to escape that life, but it's a lot harder than it is for a lot of these people shouting chav.
So trackies, Burberry and sovereigns have become so associated with being a chav anybody that dares to wear them deserves to be called a chav and stereotyped? Who the fuck are we to say what they should wear? Why should they have to change so as not to fit our negative stereotype?
You don't think that there are cultures associated with being black or being gay then?
Is every camp man gay? Wouldn't it be a bit presumption and lazy to write off every camp man as a gay man? Is every black man with dreadlocks a weed smoker?
I'm not denying stereotypes don't exist, of course they do, and it's easy to see how some come about, but we really shouldn't trust them. I don't think they do anybody any favours.
Disliking what someone wears is quite a leap from telling them what they should or shouldn't wear. They're not the same.
If they feel they have to change their look then that is something they take on themselves.
I wore trackies, Henri Lloyd jackets, sovereigns, have a staffy dog, drink stella. Basically fit every visual chav attribute there is.
However never claimed benifits, am educated, always have had a job - currently as an engineer, and i have quite liberal views.
Im definately not a waste of space.
How would pigeon holing me as a chav do anybody any favours.
People might say you should have dressed differrntly if you didnt want to be labled a chav? Why? Its not my problem others cant see beyond a stereotype.
Lots of chavs have jobs. You get different levels of chavviness.
Not all people who are antisocial or unemplyed are chavs.
Not all chavs are antisocial and unemployed
still doesnt mean there is no such thing as chavs
So somebody you dont know who is pushing a pram at 2pm, wearing a track suit, drinking stella is more than likely going to harass you? Thats the sort if presumption i think is lazy. Sorry
I thought chavs also harras people for no reason, something ive never done.
Other people have suggested chavs are agressive dolies who luve on council estates.
Seems to me the definition if the word chav is really rather vague meaning different things to differrnt people? Makes the term seem even less useful the more i hear.
A wanker in a tracksuit is a wanker in a tracksuit.
no, youre the only one thats implying that a chav always equals all of its potential definitions all in one go.
i think you must be annoyed for something else rather than it just beung lazy language. All descriptive words / labels are made to make life easier = time saving = lazy. You can put a loaded slant on it or not.
I was quite impressed to be walking behind a couple last year i remember on my way back from nursery with my daughter. A man and a woman with a pushchair and a small child in hand, 2.45pm, woman was managing to smoke a fag, push a pushchair, drink a beer and hold the hand of her daughter all at the same time. I remember it because i couldnt tell if i was more outraged or impressed with the multi-tasking. The man was swaggering and swearing to someone on the phone about the fucking social and getting up the fucking school.
Chavs.
I am lazy, I didnt describe any of their attributes individually because to me they were just chavs. A subculture I avoid but which is there all around us. I dont hate them. I didnt fear violence from them, but I would avoid them and i would never befriend them. I felt sorry for their kids and how their method of upbringing will probably never let their children have any other social advantages unless they happen to be super resilient or intelligent, but even if they are, it will likely be bullied out of them by their peer group which actively rejects and ridicules willingness to learn.
This is what i got from walking behind a small family. My language may be lazy but my thought process isnt. I could be wrong, but the chances are im not, and you know this as well as I do, but the chances are, you just have different qualities you judge for. There are a lot of things I do judge for, but my judgement isnt goijg to be the same as yours, nor to I raise my hands in shock and demand children be removed, or that theyre not fit parents etc. I give it a passing lazy thought, or actually, if the kids holding a fruit shoot and a greggs sausage roll, PLUS smoking a fag and drinking stella and swearing in the afternoon id probably think BINGO, but yeah ok, lazy.
I disagree.
Obviously it ignores those girls from poor backgrounds who passed their 11/12+. Because we didn't notice the difference within the school... what was I saying...?
Yes, I always felt that being well educated was the way to get what I wanted, and don't understand how in poorer communities it seems to be rejected.