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11/11/2011

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  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,248 Skive's The Limit
    about as useful as wearing pink for breastcancer. Makes the people who do it feel all good about themselves, and thats about it

    Rubbish.

    The sale of Poppies raise money for the RBL. Without that symbol you simply wouldn't have the awareness about the appeal - it's got you talking about it hasn't it? And for everybody that thinks it's a load of rubbish there's at least one who doesn't. I certainly don't as in the past they helped all three of my grandparents who fought or were in the services during WW2.
    I don't think it's too bad contributing to a charity who's sole purpose is to provide help for those who've defended this country and most importantly remembering them so as not to take their sacrifice for granted.

    And everybody gives to charity because it makes people feel good about themselves.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I missed the two minutes silence this year, and it saddens me.

    I observe the silence to show my respect to those who died or were injured, and to those that will die and be injured whether they were conscripted or if they did so did so willingly. I use the time to reflect on my hypocrisy over war. I am a pacifist, but I recognise truth in Orwell's statement "Those who abjure violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf"

    I believe in "just war" because I have no faith in the humanity of humankind.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    thats an interesting quote J.

    I was specifically meaning the 2 minutes silence is useless, not the poppy appeal.

    I do actually feel grateful for those that gave their lives fighting facism in the great world wars, but i hate how its come to incorporate any military action or death, and i really hate all the "heroes" bullshit

    Theyre killing for a wage thats all
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Big Gay wrote: »
    I recognise truth in Orwell's statement "Those who abjure violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf"

    potw
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I was specifically meaning the 2 minutes silence is useless, not the poppy appeal.
    I find the two minutes incredibly significant for myself, and I believe nationally setting aside two minutes per year to think about the meaning of war is a valuable thing. Unfortunately, getting the nation to spend that two minutes thinking about the matter at hand is the tricky part, and two minutes of silence is, in comparison, almost worthless.
    I do actually feel grateful for those that gave their lives fighting facism in the great world wars, but i hate how its come to incorporate any military action or death, and i really hate all the "heroes" bullshit

    Theyre killing for a wage thats all
    The wars and the people that fight them are different. To make a soldier you have to break a human and turn it into a monster. I'm grateful that people allow this to be done to them - even if they don't realise it is what is going to happen. However once they've been turned into a soldier they perform the role of a soldier, and when they perform that role well they deserve respect - and when they can no longer perform the role society has an obligation to take care of them.

    These soldiers are trained to start and stop killing on command, that these soldiers are killing to preserve our luxury lifestyles instead of our freedom is a subtlety beyond their altered moral landscape
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree that no one should unquestioningly buy into tradition, but I don't see that you're being asked to do that by observing a two minutes silence. A pause for thought on November 11th isn't asking you to condone contemporary wars, fleetingly buy into jingoism or engage in stiff-upper-lipped revisionism.
    Hence I use it to remember all the victims of war and the people who fought and continue to fight fascism... I just won't donate to the poppy appeal or wear a red poppy. I don't like the campaigns that the appeal puts forwards.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Thing is that soldiers don't decide which wars to fight. It's naive to think otherwise. Soldiers join the armed forces for a number of reasons - some because they feel patriotic, some because they want the lifestyle, others because there isn't an alternative employment opportunity and they want to escape their life of poverty.
    Who is blaming the soldiers? People were forced in to fighting the world wars, it is a different situation to where we are now... Yes, a lot of people join because there are no other career prospects, but that doesn't justify anything for me other than getting involved politically to fight poverty and social issues. Of course, how many people genuinely care enough for working class people to actively spend a bit of time doing this?
    If you think that fighting over oil isn't part of that whole "defend our interests" point, then consider how a lack of it would impact on your daily life. Consider what the increasing costs of oil is doing to our economy. What you always have to remember is that there will always be someone willing to go that step further than you to ensure that they have something which you also want. It's not possible to find a diplomatic solution to every incidence.
    This is really... Not the point and probably a whole different debate. There are different ways for the world to work economically, which can be in the interests of people and not just big business.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm really not sure you've thought this through...

    POUM may have been anti-fascist, but as I'm sure you know they weren't destroyed by the fascists, but by fellow left-wingers and you would honour their memory more by being anti-communist party.
    And the Italian anti-fascist group was destroyed as well, not by fascists... It doesn't mean I don't respect them and their bravery, I just don't hold it to any less status than people who fought Hitler. I don't really think I said anywhere about who destroyed POUM, just that I am an anti-fascist and that is the belief I hold for 11.11.11.
    I also don't really think you can demonstrate your anti-fascism by being against the overthrpow of the Baath party and Saddam. There may be many good reasons for being against the war, but if you were anti-facist you wouldsurely support the overthrow of what was a textbook fascist party (cult of leadership, extreme nationalism, corporatist economy...)
    Blair shook hands with some dictators, whilst invading Iraq. Also, don't forget who sold weapons to Saddam Hussein in the past and who continues to sell weapons and trade with totalitarian regimes. Also, would forces so concerned with the Iraqi people use DU weaponry and other forms of combat which pretty much kills indiscriminately?

    I didn't agree with the regime in Iraq, of course... But I feel in a global context, the war was imperialistic. The UK has sold arms to Libya and Saudi Arabia which were used by oppressive governments against people. That is before even getting started on the USA and international relations...
    Also I'm not sure if you realise is not just facists who blow the legs of people - yes, the first person who's legs I saw who'd been blown off (or blown away more accurately) it had been done by fascists (the IRA since you ask...), but the second person, who was a young girl, had her legs taken off by the Serbs who made a great play of the fact that they were anti-facist.
    Who is saying that only fascist organisations have harmed people? ???
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    Who is blaming the soldiers? People were forced in to fighting the world wars, it is a different situation to where we are now...

    This is because people freely volunteer to, if they didn't we would still have conscription.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    or they dont mind going to war, no questions asked, as long as theyre getting paid a good wage
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    This is because people freely volunteer to, if they didn't we would still have conscription.
    To be honest, I feel that if enough people stood together, they couldn't be forced in to conscription by the state. Either way, I don't see the whole "you fight so I don't have to, ergo you're a hero" line being any more applicable to a soldier, than it is to a police officer, fire fighter, teacher, nurse or street sweeper.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    or they dont mind going to war, no questions asked, as long as theyre getting paid a good wage

    Would you say that was the rule, or the exception to the rule?

    There are a lot of things people wouldnt mind doing as long as they were getting paid a good wage.

    As for remembrance, saw this picture on bbc news and thought it nicely highlighted how people from potentially very different walks of life can come together.
    Attachment not found.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As for Afghanistan, its a conflict (not a war) where the bad guys are using asymmetric tactics, there is no front line and no enemy who walks around with a uniform on.

    As for the anyone going to war if it was a good wage comment, I'd rather get paid less and not have to go, but who joins the armed forces with the intention of never going out to a foreign land? Its like becoming a nurse and not wanting to treat people because it might get a bit hard when you are thousands of miles away from home/friends/family for 6 months at a time, and some people being back less than a year before going back out there? I doubt that a lot of people really look forward to that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I distrust anything that dictates a mode of behaviour or even a thought for something as complex and provocative as war and those that serve in them. I mentioned previously that war means different things to different people. Something so fundamentally English (British Legion) and 'patriotic' is not engaging people from all walks of life at all. It would be arguably straightforward to only think about WW1 or II but I fail to see a disclaimer stating that this is the purpose anywhere. What is a Somalian refugee supposed to think about? Or the families of the victims of Bloody Sunday? As I understand it, although it falls on Armstice Day, isn't it supposed to be to remember soldiers that have died in ALL conflicts?

    Also, to back up SCC's point. Whilst I appreciate people may wish to take 2 minutes out of their day on the 11th November to think about whatever they want either publicly (Costa is apparently ideal) or at their desk then that is upto them but by not following this weird nationwide stipulation that you need to think about this unspecific *thing* right now at this particular time I don't believe Churchill will be turning in his grave.

    Saw this video on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41FUwyfpcQ8 Look at Bob Hoskins, Paul O'Grady, The Saturdays et al looking grave and sombre. Gawp at the scars on the soldier's face. Oh look there's Example looking like he wants to nut me. I don't know about anyone else but I'd much rather watch a documentary or read a Terry Deary book then have to stare into the empty eyes of Franki from the Saturdays.

    My own disclaimer is that I am not questioning or attacking anyone's grandparents, brothers, sisters who might have or who may servce in the army or anyone that observed the 2minute silence. I am questioning the validity of a tradition that claims to celebrate freedom but in practice seems to suggest that non-compliant people are enemies. or worse.. Muslim men.. WITH BEARDS. See http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3223873/Muslim-mob-burn-giant-poppy-and-disrupt-Remembrance-Day-silence.html
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i think it all glorifies war tbh. Perpetuates the "our boys" "heroes" military fetish that i keep seeing in this country all the time.

    Have you ever asked one of the WW2 veterans whether he thinks it's about glory, or about mourning. I know my grandfather used to cry every year as he remembered friends who were no longer around.

    If there's one thing he taught me, it's that there is no glory in war. I really don't understand how anyone can get that feeling from Rememberance Day
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Anyone else find this thread interesting - the difference in approaches. Maybe I'm misreading it...

    Those who believe in the two minutes silence and the poppy campaign talk about remembering the dead and respecting the living.
    Those who don't believe seem to be applying a political dimension about the rights and wrongs of war.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Anyone else find this thread interesting - the difference in approaches. Maybe I'm misreading it...

    Those who believe in the two minutes silence and the poppy campaign talk about remembering the dead and respecting the living.
    Those who don't believe seem to be applying a political dimension about the rights and wrongs of war.

    mm, i wouldn't say that i fall into that catagory at all. i think the pressure to wear a poppy or take part in the two minute silence actually takes from the real meaning. it is sad. look at the way edl have hijacked the poppy http://englishdefenceleague.org/.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The difference is that what those (minority of) muslims did, was deliberately designed to cause distress and harm to other people, and they admitted that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    mm, i wouldn't say that i fall into that catagory at all. i think the pressure to wear a poppy or take part in the two minute silence actually takes from the real meaning. it is sad. look at the way edl have hijacked the poppy http://englishdefenceleague.org/.

    I dont think there is an undue pressure to wear a poppy, if there is then anyone who has a go at you for it should get a grip of themselves. I myself went through a few days where I didnt wear a poppy some days, because they kept falling off and kept on having to get new ones. I have seen plenty of people who have not been wearing poppies.

    As for hijacking/real meaning, it shouldnt matter what a group like the EDL do in regards to the poppy, its what it means and matters to you that counts.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    mm, i wouldn't say that i fall into that catagory at all. i think the pressure to wear a poppy or take part in the two minute silence actually takes from the real meaning. it is sad. look at the way edl have hijacked the poppy http://englishdefenceleague.org/.

    I was talking about this thread, rather than the wider debate which has happened over the past couple of weeks. Take a look back over the thread...

    As for the "Poppy Fascism", I think I've made my views clear in my first post in this thread. I will re-iterate though. It's wrong to bully people into observing any silence or to wear a poppy, that simple. Each is a personal statement and should always remain so. I will respect anyone's right to make either choice - partly because that right of choice is precisely what I believe our armed forces protect.

    I respect that right to choose not to, I just think it's the wrong choice. I especially think it's the wrong choice when it's based on a moral stance about warfare or on a political stance of whether any specific war is just or not. Surely remembering those whom have be killed in such an abhorrent way is something which everyone should be able to get behind.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As I understand it, although it falls on Armstice Day, isn't it supposed to be to remember soldiers that have died in ALL conflicts?

    All those since WW1 specifically. Worth considering that the following is a list of the years that, since WW2, no British serviceman has been killed in combat.









    1968








    Er.





    That's it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    im just not much keen on the idea that "our boys" are killing "their boys"

    all peoples boys, all fighting for what they believe
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I was talking about this thread, rather than the wider debate which has happened over the past couple of weeks. Take a look back over the thread...

    As for the "Poppy Fascism", I think I've made my views clear in my first post in this thread. I will re-iterate though. It's wrong to bully people into observing any silence or to wear a poppy, that simple. Each is a personal statement and should always remain so. I will respect anyone's right to make either choice - partly because that right of choice is precisely what I believe our armed forces protect.

    I respect that right to choose not to, I just think it's the wrong choice. I especially think it's the wrong choice when it's based on a moral stance about warfare or on a political stance of whether any specific war is just or not. Surely remembering those whom have be killed in such an abhorrent way is something which everyone should be able to get behind.

    No. I was talking about this thread specifically too. I've contributed a few times now and I don't think that I fall into either catagory you mentioned. Although, I'm unsure what you mean by 'political stance', it seems to be a catch-all word and I don't think you can simplify this debate into rememberence and respect vs a political agenda.

    Again to re-iterate my opinion, the idea of war and the people who serve in them is subjective and complex. Whilst you may think about your own personal family history; another may think about the brutality inflicted in the city of Derry or the obliteration of innocent civilians in Afghanistan.

    Maybe you want to explain the 1968 point too? As I understood it, your point is that a hell of a lot of soldiers die every year?

    G-Raffe- about the poppy, I think that ideally that would be the case but then look what happened to the flag. I just wanted to point out that some people use events like this to further project hatred and the fine line between patrotism and nationalism. Which in itself makes me feel uncomfortable, like SCC says 'it's our boys vs their boys'. Or.. 'God is on our side because we are good'.
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