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11/11/2011

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
Who's going to observe the silence?

Anyone not?

And afterwards, who was in places that did and who was in places thatd didn't?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I did, was at the O2 shop. They closed the doors for 2 minutes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I respect the fact that people died fighting fascism, whether they were conscripted in the UK, or members of the International Brigades, POUM, Arditi Del Popolo ect (non government armies fighting fascism in other countries).

    I don't wear a red poppy out of choice because I don't like the campaigns. If I were to give to a campaign to support ex-sevice people, they would have to be actively campaigning the government to put more in place to rehabilitate and help ex-army and be about ending imperialistic wars.

    Saying this has offended people and tbh, I don't really care. I didn't support Iraq or Afghanistan... They're about natural resources and bullying other nations and governments are lobbied by the arms industries to invade and occupy. I support fighting fascism and moves to make sure that it doesn't come back. I support anti-war campaigns so people don't get their legs blown off in the first place and so that the civilians (so far as I know, most deaths in war have been civilians since 1945?) who have no choice in the matter, unlike people who enter the services, don't end up disfigured, dead, or giving birth to disabled children.

    I observe the silence in work, but I didn't today. I'm not really in to tradition.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Wether you agree with the wars or not, respecting the tradition of silence on Armistice day is about taking 2 minutes out of your life to a respect to the sacrifices members of the armed forces have made for us.
    Not paying for a poppy because the Royal legion should be campaigning to end imperialistic wars? Sorry, misguided imho. If you don't agree with the wars then you withold your taxes or you join the marches on parliament, you don't withold cash from an organisation that uses it for good.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well I was impressed here - on a very busy offshore platform, the warning that 11am was coming up went out on the tannoy, following the the announcement of the start, and the end of the silence.

    If we can manage it - I'd struggle to understand why any other work place or shop couldn't.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    Wether you agree with the wars or not, respecting the tradition of silence on Armistice day is about taking 2 minutes out of your life to a respect to the sacrifices members of the armed forces have made for us.
    Not paying for a poppy because the Royal legion should be campaigning to end imperialistic wars? Sorry, misguided imho. If you don't agree with the wars then you withold your taxes or you join the marches on parliament, you don't withold cash from an organisation that uses it for good.
    And what about all the other charities out there "doing good"? Why is the Red Poppy Appeal any more important? It isn't to me... I don't care for its posters making "heroes" of people who went out and fought in Iraq... Joining the army was their choice.

    I did join the marches on Parliament, I can't by choice with hold my taxes. I am actively involved in anti-fascist activities.

    The past few years, I spent my two minutes remembering the victims of war and oppression. I don't salute any soldier to be a "hero" or anything above a refuse worker, cleaner, homeless person, prisoner, politician, banker or nurse.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's quite a restricted and selective view of the conflicts, and circumstances surrounding the conflicts, that the soldiers of this country have been involved in.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's quite a restricted and selective view of the conflicts, and circumstances surrounding the conflicts, that the soldiers of this country have been involved in.
    Enlighten me :)

    I think it's restrictive to buy in to tradition, rather than question things objectively.

    Countries go to war for several reasons, but there are a lot of differences between WW2 and Iraq.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    And what about all the other charities out there "doing good"? Why is the Red Poppy Appeal any more important? It isn't to me... I don't care for its posters making "heroes" of people who went out and fought in Iraq... Joining the army was their choice.

    I did join the marches on Parliament, I can't by choice with hold my taxes. I am actively involved in anti-fascist activities.

    The past few years, I spent my two minutes remembering the victims of war and oppression. I don't salute any soldier to be a "hero" or anything above a refuse worker, cleaner, homeless person, prisoner, politician, banker or nurse.

    This is something we will never agree on then.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm in agreement to a degree with Namaste. If I were to wear a poppy, it will be a white one. But this:
    respect to the sacrifices members of the armed forces have made for us.

    That's said for every other nation who thinks what their armed forces did was a good thing, even if it wasn't by our standards.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    I think it's restrictive to buy in to tradition, rather than question things objectively.

    I agree that no one should unquestioningly buy into tradition, but I don't see that you're being asked to do that by observing a two minutes silence. A pause for thought on November 11th isn't asking you to condone contemporary wars, fleetingly buy into jingoism or engage in stiff-upper-lipped revisionism.
    Countries go to war for several reasons, but there are a lot of differences between WW2 and Iraq.

    And this speaks to my point. The two most recent, ill-judged conflicts aren't the sum-total of Remembrance Day.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I was driving a car. I got to my destination, checked the time, and thought 'oh, I missed it :/'.

    I was still had them in my thoughts throughout the day though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    We observed it at work in our lab. I think it's important to remember those who have given their lives so that we may live in the country/world we know of today.

    And I know it is a soldiers choice to become a soldier, but it is a job far more dangerous than I would be willing to do, and so I have to respect that, and think of family members who helped in the Wars.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    I think it's restrictive to buy in to tradition, rather than question things objectively.

    There is nothing wrong with questioning things objectively, but you aren't are you? You've started from a perspective that some wars are "wrong" and therefore your feeling towards those who either died, were injured of fought are different.

    Thing is that soldiers don't decide which wars to fight. It's naive to think otherwise. Soldiers join the armed forces for a number of reasons - some because they feel patriotic, some because they want the lifestyle, others because there isn't an alternative employment opportunity and they want to escape their life of poverty.

    The reality is though that the freedoms we take for granted - such as the choice whether or not to wear a poppy, or the option to look at any website and comment freely - have been won as a consequence of the blood spilled by them and their brethren. Both of my grandfathers gave up six years of their lives to defend the interests of my country and I will forever be grateful for that. I sat and listened to some of their stories, I saw the impact it had on them (one could never watch a TV programme which had the sounds of gunfire). When you see that, you do have to wonder why it could ever be wrong to wear a poppy, or respect a few minutes silence.

    If you think that fighting over oil isn't part of that whole "defend our interests" point, then consider how a lack of it would impact on your daily life. Consider what the increasing costs of oil is doing to our economy. What you always have to remember is that there will always be someone willing to go that step further than you to ensure that they have something which you also want. It's not possible to find a diplomatic solution to every incidence.

    Now, I'm not a gung-ho kill them all type of person. I may not have supported why some wars have taken place. I do, however, acknowledge that the world and options I have is only the consquence of the fact that there are people like our armed forces ready and willing to go out and put their own lives in peril for my own benefit. This means that I don't have to.

    There is no truer epitaph than the one at Kohima. "When You Go Home, Tell Them Of Us And Say, For Their Tomorrow, We Gave Our Today".

    Having said all that, I understand why people choose not to wear a poppy on moral grounds. It's a choice thing. In fact, I'm actually more worried by the "Poppy Fascism" which is demonstrated by the recent stories about the England football team. Wearing a poppy is a personal statement and should never be an expectation. Don't get me started about Nadine Dorries and the huge poppy she wore on Question Time last night, or the fact that some celebs feel that it's appropriate to wear a glittery one. I'll just rant.

    So basically, that's my long version of saying this. I understand why you might not want to wear a poppy, I just think that you are wrong. I also think that the White Poppy is actually much more of a political statement than the standard red one will ever be, really.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If the argument is used that "they signed up knowing the risks" is used, then the same should be applied when a police officer, fireman, general service person, nurse, teacher etc has something bad happen. Yes its much less likely if you are not in the armed forces, but its entirely feasible no matter how unlikely.

    I agree with Namaste to a certain point. I would rather live in a society where we didn't have to give to a forces charity because the government gave a lot more, but unfortunately we don't live in that world.

    People from all walks of life have disagreements with both Iraq and Afghanistan, but many of those people still recognise the sacrifices that some people have made. Yes they knew the risks, but they didn't sign up to die.

    My view is more than likely slightly biased because of what I do for a living, but to me it is important for people to donate to forces charities if they choose to do so. Much like I respect those with religious views, I get annoyed when someone tries to force something down my throat.

    I also think that supporting serving an ex forces people through charity donations, and remembering those who have died in service of their country, are two separate things. Furthermore, whilst they are separate, they can coexist very well if you want them to.

    The bigger thing here is remembering that the RBL whilst gaining a large chunk of its money at this time of year, they still work hard trying to get donations all year round. Remembrance day is about remembering, not specifically charity, but I still donate.

    People have mentioned in this thread about being annoyed at "hero" status of soldiers etc, and that they have a problem with that. Its important to realise that whilst there are some people like that in the armed forces, many do consider themselves to be just doing their job, and the "hero" status is something bestowed upon them by (admittedly) proud civilians who respect what they do.

    I'd rather someone not wear a poppy, but still stop and have a moments reflection in their day, whatever time of the year it is. It really does mean a lot to those who are still serving and their families, and whether you believe in their "sacrifice" or not in any current or past war, they still died, so are we not all human?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think this article is good.... Remember the living
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think this article is good.... Remember the living

    Totally agree with everything in that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I was sat in costa coffee, and the staff did their damnedest to make sure everyone in the cafe observed the silence. Everyone down the high street came out of the shops as well, which was quite nice.

    On the other hand I saw this status on old school friend's facebook page:
    The industrialised mass murder of the world wars had nothing to do with protecting freedom. The poppy, like the flag, is a symbol of slavery, not liberation.
    Made me sick honestly. I think a lot of young people don't realise the price paid by so many to save not just Britain but Europe from facism and totalitarianism.

    I come from a family of people who chose to go into the fire brigade and such instead of being send to the front line in WW2, and maybe I'm biased but I think their contribution was just as important - as was the land girls, ATS, WAAF, WRNS and all the volunteer services both now and then that keep things running in times of emergency and war.

    I'm not pro-war by any means, I think very few people are, but I am all for supporting those that protect and have protected us as a nation (and I think there should be greater recognision of emergency services staff who give their lives to save and protect us personally), and those who are helping protect those from other nations. This really made me think about the part that our forces are playing and why they need to be there right now.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    I respect the fact that people died fighting fascism, whether they were conscripted in the UK, or members of the International Brigades, POUM, Arditi Del Popolo ect (non government armies fighting fascism in other countries).

    I don't wear a red poppy out of choice because I don't like the campaigns. If I were to give to a campaign to support ex-sevice people, they would have to be actively campaigning the government to put more in place to rehabilitate and help ex-army and be about ending imperialistic wars.

    Saying this has offended people and tbh, I don't really care. I didn't support Iraq or Afghanistan... They're about natural resources and bullying other nations and governments are lobbied by the arms industries to invade and occupy. I support fighting fascism and moves to make sure that it doesn't come back. I support anti-war campaigns so people don't get their legs blown off in the first place and so that the civilians (so far as I know, most deaths in war have been civilians since 1945?) who have no choice in the matter, unlike people who enter the services, don't end up disfigured, dead, or giving birth to disabled children.

    I observe the silence in work, but I didn't today. I'm not really in to tradition.

    I'm really not sure you've thought this through...

    POUM may have been anti-fascist, but as I'm sure you know they weren't destroyed by the fascists, but by fellow left-wingers and you would honour their memory more by being anti-communist party.

    I also don't really think you can demonstrate your anti-fascism by being against the overthrpow of the Baath party and Saddam. There may be many good reasons for being against the war, but if you were anti-facist you wouldsurely support the overthrow of what was a textbook fascist party (cult of leadership, extreme nationalism, corporatist economy...)

    Also I'm not sure if you realise is not just facists who blow the legs of people - yes, the first person who's legs I saw who'd been blown off (or blown away more accurately) it had been done by fascists (the IRA since you ask...), but the second person, who was a young girl, had her legs taken off by the Serbs who made a great play of the fact that they were anti-facist.

    Perhaps you'd also explain how your colleagues felt about your lack of observation. I'd have to say it was quiet enough to hear a pin drop in my office today, but perhaps I'm lucky enough to work with people who have have enough respect for their colleagues that even if they don;t personally agree with the silence they observe it out of respect for the feelings of others.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think this article is good.... Remember the living

    Absolutely agree with that. There is a tendency to see soldiers either as gung-ho pyschotics or hard as steel supermen - and I'm sometimes not sure that the latter is not more damaging. I actually don;t think the money raising aspect of Remeberance Day is its most important aspect, what is the most important bit is getting people to think and remember about not just WW1 and WW2, but wars closer to home such as the Falklands, Northern Ireland and Afghanistan. And remember that the men who fought them weren't Homeric supermen, but young ordinary blokes from the backstreets of Belfast and Glasgow, the Welsh valleys and the old pit villages of Yorkshire
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    I don't salute any soldier to be a "hero" or anything above a refuse worker, cleaner, homeless person, prisoner, politician, banker or nurse.

    i'm alarmed that you feel that way. we can't understand the horror of war unless we have been there, and thankfully our brothers and husbands and friends don't have to go there, unless they volunteer to. if no one volunteered for the army we'd end up with conscription. we are lucky that people in our country are prepared to go and face that unimaginable danger, so that those that don't want to don't have to. as long as there are humans on the planet there will be wars, and as far as i am concerned any brave young man or woman who is prepared to put their life on the line so that my loved ones don't have to is a true hero to me.

    it's not about whether you agree with particular conflicts, it's about having the humility and the respect to say thank you. we can debate the politics of wars all year round, but today we show our gratitude.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    We did today at costa and i wore my poppy as well. Before i came in apparently there were a couple of women complaining about how they were going to be 'held up' for 2 minutes out of their day. Just cant believe people sometimes
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    namaste wrote: »
    i respect the fact that people died fighting fascism, whether they were conscripted in the uk, or members of the international brigades, poum, arditi del popolo ect (non government armies fighting fascism in other countries).

    I don't wear a red poppy out of choice because i don't like the campaigns. If i were to give to a campaign to support ex-sevice people, they would have to be actively campaigning the government to put more in place to rehabilitate and help ex-army and be about ending imperialistic wars.

    Saying this has offended people and tbh, i don't really care. I didn't support iraq or afghanistan... They're about natural resources and bullying other nations and governments are lobbied by the arms industries to invade and occupy. I support fighting fascism and moves to make sure that it doesn't come back. I support anti-war campaigns so people don't get their legs blown off in the first place and so that the civilians (so far as i know, most deaths in war have been civilians since 1945?) who have no choice in the matter, unlike people who enter the services, don't end up disfigured, dead, or giving birth to disabled children.

    I observe the silence in work, but i didn't today. I'm not really in to tradition.


    potw
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i really dont think it should be mandatory to observe the 2 minute silence. people should be given the choice. i dont believe that the only way to show 'respect' is having to stop my work at 11am to sit in awkward silence with my colleagues. if i CHOOSE to show respect, i do it in my own private way. if i don't. then it's my CHOICE.

    also, as someone else mentioned before with the poppies and who is wearing the biggest one or one that resembles a botanical vajazzle. what does it all even mean? why do a lot (not all) people seem to be in this weird yet morbid competition to show who can show the most 'respect'/'pride'?

    i am aware that a lot of people feel the need to change their facebook statuses to the exact same line and the exact same poppy and whilst this isn't the place to criticise that because it will inevitably fuck people off. i dont feel the need to publicly change my display picture/status just as i dont feel the need to publicly sit in silence with strangers and i don't feel compelled to sit in silence at 11am exactly. this isn't an attack on people who did observe the 2 min silence but my choice in not observing it doesn't make me some idiot who is going to defecate on a war memorial either.

    and also, some dunderheads on fb seem to be confusing patriotism with nationalism. see popular profile picture on fb: racistpoppy.th.jpg

    and yes it's sad how something so innocent can be turned into something so ugly. but then in my opinion it's farrr too easy to turn residual national pride into something quite sinister and destructive or 'them' and 'us'.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Is it just about respect though?

    I was always brought up, by home and school and Scouting, that the two minutes silence was as much about remembering the destruction that war causes and why we should really aim for never again.

    Quite frankly to me, the awkward silence is almost the whole point. To try and make people take 2 minutes a year to think about the consequences of different opinions and of greed (which is essentially where war comes from). I would argue that some one who thinks that they shouldn't be made to suffer two minutes of awkward silence with their colleagues is hiding from spending two minutes facing up to the cold hard realities of the wars that have gone on in the past and are still going on today.

    I can see Namaste's objection to poppys - given her attitude to the bigger picture, but to me actually the two minutes silence can be used as a motivator to try and get more people behind ending armed conflict.

    Out of sight, out of mind is a great principle. It's one that works really well, but as a supposedly civilised free country I don't think it's one we should be encouraging when it comes to this topic. It's important to remember, not only the lives that were lost, but what they were fighting for - and how we've failed time and time again when it came to fighting for peace, and that it's probably time to take another line.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Is a two minutes silence once a year really that much of a strain?

    We preach on in this world on an almost constant basis about tolerance and understanding, being respectful and caring for one another.

    Even if its for the old boys and girls who fought and/or suffered in WW2, is 2 minutes really that much of a pain? I didn't speak a word (to someone's face) at all today till around 3pm. I'm not saying that people should feel they have to, or be forced to respect the two minutes silence, but its a relatively easy thing to do. This is of course unless people speak literally every waking minute of every day.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    SM- I think it's an unfair judgement to make that because I don't want to take part in a 2 minute silence that I don't want to face up to 'harsh realities'. Considering my Jewish background and family history I am well aware of the destruction that war causes and how it can never, ever happen again.

    'Remembering' / 'Respecting' past events is a completely private and personal thing and I don't want to be dictated or bullied into an exclusive and almost restrictive time to do that. Another poster mentioned Costa closing their doors. That is insane. Did they bar the doors or what?

    Also, war means different things to different people. Maybe people simply don't want to remember. For example a young refugee girl who has seen her mother brutally raped by soldiers and her father killed in her home country may not appreciate the 2 minute mandatory silence that they hold in schools. What is she supposed to think about?

    To summarise as I am tired: My arguement is that the 2 minute silence should be optional. As it is to buy/wear a poppy, but I'd like to suggest that if you don't purchase one it is seen as some sort of heinous crime. I wonder how many people tonight were checking out the X Factor judges and contestants to see who was wearing a poppy. Tulisa wore a sparkly one in her hair. DISGRACEFUUUUL
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think its some form of heinous crime to not want to follow the 2 minutes silence, not to want to think about it at a time of your choosing. Though in being considerate, it does mean a hell of a lot to some people, and two minutes of not talking (which I'm sure many people achieve every day without thinking about it) is a pretty easy way to not necessarily show respect for war dead, but for the views of others.

    Has anyone ever sat down and started reading a book and not being able to put it down? Pretty easy to do whilst staying quiet. I'm not saying by any means that you have to think about war, about the people who have died because of it, or anything related to it. What about thinking about something completely random in your head, like your plans for the evening, taking a moment to think of how you are going to solve that problem in work etc? If not for the remembrance part of the day, perhaps think of it as showing some respect for others who find it does mean a lot to them.

    I'm not saying any of you would necessarily go around shouting in peoples ears whilst they are trying to observe the silence, but if they are being quiet, its not as if you can carry on a one sided conversation is it?

    As for having a set day/time for remembrance, it in no way stops you thinking about the same issues at any other time of the day/year.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    and what did your 2 minutes silence acheive exactly, that its such a big deal that someone doesnt do it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i think it all glorifies war tbh. Perpetuates the "our boys" "heroes" military fetish that i keep seeing in this country all the time.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    about as useful as wearing pink for breastcancer. Makes the people who do it feel all good about themselves, and thats about it
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