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The idea of "culture."
I've just got my copy off my bookshelf. This is what it has to say on Gramsci and hegemony.
Yes and not necessarily by those in power.
The stories my grandfather told me were about his history, they weren't written by anyone in power, they were what he had seen. That same process goes on in every family around the world.
I don't think I said it was.
Of course. They also sometimes conflict with the official history we are taught, so there is a process of negotiation that goes on as to what narratives get generally accepted (see that quote about Gramsci earlier). However, it is not a level playing field - I presume your grandfather never got to determine the National Curriculum, for example.
So we've all said what we thought Patriotism means, to us if not in general.
What is patriotism to you?
And how do you connect being British to it?
It is not Hatred of non-Britons, depite what the BNP might say. And there in lies the issue - idiots such as the BNP use the term Patriot to mean so much that it isn't - Racism, Zenophobia, and the like. That is not Patriotism.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/patriotism
I'm British, so therefore if I was patriotic (which I'm not for the reasons discussed), I would be patriotic about Britain. Obvious, surely?
Patritoism:
-noun
devoted love, support, and defence of one's country; national loyalty.
The idea that you can love a country seems a trifle absurd to me. As Blagsta rightly points out, there are so many people, who differ so greatly, and have so many unique interpretations of what our country is (and has been), that the idea of loving such a wishy-washy, vague concept seems bizarre to me.
I'm not sure that holds. The fact that different people intepret their country differently and have different interpretations doesn't seem to me to preclude patriotism.
I and MoK may have differing interpretations of what patriotism is and why we are patriotic, but that doesn't mean that either of us is right or wrong. Just that in any discussion about how you feel about things and any discussion about the nature of the state/countries you are going to be discussing slightly abstract concepts.
Erm... isn't this why it is subjective.
What I love about being Brtish is what I see as a culture of sticking up for the underdog, for example. That isn't necessarily what makes other people feel pride in our country - Ian Wright would argue that we should only laud winners.
I understand what you're saying, but I think it could be convincingly argued that sticking up for the underdog isn't exclusively a British trait, nor is it even a trait exhibited by the majority of Brits. I think what you've really got then is respect for a particular mentality, but a respect which really can't be attributed to something as vast and as diverse as Britain.
You can still be a patriot and live in a multicultural society. I know what you mean about banning the flag though, if you put a flag up in your window people could consider it 'racist'. Or maybe that's just papers like the Sun stirring trouble? :chin:
Tbh, I think that the homogonisation(spl?) of our highstreets by big companies is more worrying and a bigger threat to our culture than multiculturalism.
I would suggest that what you feel isn't patriotism. I feel/think something similar - there are many aspects of Britishness that I love. Sticking up for the underdog that you mentioned, innovative youth cultures/music/subcultures, a scepticism of authority etc.
However that is a different thing from patriotism, which has connotations of nationalism, of "official" histories and jingoism. Look at the definitions in the link I posted - "devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.", "love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it; "they rode the same wave of popular patriotism"; "British nationalism was in the air and patriotic sentiments ran high"" etc. (italics mine).
As philosophical as you might be, sometimes you just have to go with the flow on what is and is not better or an improvement. Im sure a smoker who loves to smoke when ever and where ever would think a blanket smoking ban was in no way an improvement where as others might think it is as it will be better for the general health of people with in a nation.
It's just about doing what you think is best and right. Does EVERYTHING have to be questioned endlessly? I mean, take a moment to chill and let things happen, don't analyse every little thing.
I don't necessarily have answers either. However, I do wonder how you come to believe what you do if you don't ask questions.
I don't necessarily think bringing class/economics into debates as if that's the mode every debate must be based on is that helpful either.
What Gramsci says may be an astute critical analysis but that doesn't mean he's right.
How does it not come into it?
No, it doesn't. If you disagree, then constuct a cogent argument as to why.
It does, some more so than others. You assume that it's the main thing in any debate when it's not always.
That culture is generated through compromises between the ruling elite and working classes as a way to supplement economic power? That just assumes the working class are clueless to what the ruling elite wants to do with them and are blinded by culture to see the "truth." Bollocks.
I am a patriot. I love my country, I love its history and achievements, but I do not agree with the way it is run at present. I can love my country and hate the government at the same time.
It's always quite a major factor.
Why do you think it assumes that?
Yes I know that.
You've completely ignored my point.
Because people aren't just stupid enough to give consent to such matters. It just generates ideas of intellectual leaders in dark rooms laughing away while the poor working man falls for his plan. Bullshit.
Also, in Ireland, the whole idea of rebellion/revolution is entrenched in our culture, through song and literature. Why the fuck would any government let such a value be a part of it's culture if it might promote rebellion?
Eh?
Maybe to you it does, but that's not what is intendend.
Its not a matter of government's "letting" something happen. It's a process of negotiation. You yourself said that people aren't clueless. Some ideas are too powerful. However, things become recuperated and thus stripped of power. Now I don't live in Ireland and know very little about the culture there, but I would guess that there are tourist tours or pubs that take advantage of the history of rebellion against the English? Think about Che Guevera t-shirts for example.
In other words, anything which promotes your dream vision of anarchist utopia.
Errrr...yeah mate.
Hardly. Nothing there about anarchy, more about being an individual and not just one in a crowd.
Nothing explicit.