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Patriotism

124

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    What is?

    The idea of "culture."
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
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    I've just got my copy off my bookshelf. This is what it has to say on Gramsci and hegemony.
    The key term in Gramsci's thought is hegemony, which is critical for an understanding of history and the structure of any given society. Hegemony is what binds society together without the use of force.

    This is achieved when the upper classes supplement their economic power by creating "intellectual and moral leadership".

    To achieve this leadership, compromises are made with the working classes and a general consent is generated. Gramsci saw this process as the key to the success of liberal democracies in Britain and France. Both negotiation and consent are essential terms for understanding hegemony. Ideas, values and beliefs are not imposed from above, neither do they develop in a free and accidental way, but are negotiated through a whole series of encounters and collisions between classes.

    This active process, which operates on a number of fronts, eventually leads to a "compromise equilibrium" between competing classes.

    Culture is one of the key sites where struggle for hegemony takes place; and it is in the arena of popular culture that the issues of "moral and intellectual leadership" are resolved.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    Well seeing as we can never know for sure what happened in the past because all the evidence we have is filtered through different people's perspectives, it amounts to the same thing. History does not have a fixed meaning - it is contingent on perspective and is constantly being re-written.

    Yes and not necessarily by those in power.

    The stories my grandfather told me were about his history, they weren't written by anyone in power, they were what he had seen. That same process goes on in every family around the world.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes and not necessarily by those in power.

    I don't think I said it was.
    The stories my grandfather told me were about his history, they weren't written by anyone in power, they were what he had seen. That same process goes on in every family around the world.


    Of course. They also sometimes conflict with the official history we are taught, so there is a process of negotiation that goes on as to what narratives get generally accepted (see that quote about Gramsci earlier). However, it is not a level playing field - I presume your grandfather never got to determine the National Curriculum, for example.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:

    So we've all said what we thought Patriotism means, to us if not in general.
    What is patriotism to you?
    And how do you connect being British to it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Iam from Australia and if theres one thing that we lack in it's patriotism! We are one of the most multicultural societies in the world and people dont consider themselves an "Aussie" unless they are from an English-anglo saxxon background. They even tried to ban the Australian flag on Australia day, (which is like our independance day) because it was too offensive to other nationalities.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    I am a Patriot. To me, it is Pride in Britain, our great achievements, and the good of our people. It is the resentment of those who let our country down, and act badly, giving Britain a bad name (There seem to be so many these days to!)

    It is not Hatred of non-Britons, depite what the BNP might say. And there in lies the issue - idiots such as the BNP use the term Patriot to mean so much that it isn't - Racism, Zenophobia, and the like. That is not Patriotism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    migpilot wrote: »
    So we've all said what we thought Patriotism means, to us if not in general.
    What is patriotism to you?

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/patriotism
    migpilot wrote: »
    And how do you connect being British to it?


    :confused: I'm British, so therefore if I was patriotic (which I'm not for the reasons discussed), I would be patriotic about Britain. Obvious, surely? :confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I must be coming down with something; I'm completely in agreement with Blagsta here.

    Patritoism:
    -noun
    devoted love, support, and defence of one's country; national loyalty.

    The idea that you can love a country seems a trifle absurd to me. As Blagsta rightly points out, there are so many people, who differ so greatly, and have so many unique interpretations of what our country is (and has been), that the idea of loving such a wishy-washy, vague concept seems bizarre to me.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I must be coming down with something; I'm completely in agreement with Blagsta here.

    Patritoism:
    -noun
    devoted love, support, and defence of one's country; national loyalty.

    The idea that you can love a country seems a trifle absurd to me. As Blagsta rightly points out, there are so many people, who differ so greatly, and have so many unique interpretations of what our country is (and has been), that the idea of loving such a wishy-washy, vague concept seems bizarre to me.

    I'm not sure that holds. The fact that different people intepret their country differently and have different interpretations doesn't seem to me to preclude patriotism.

    I and MoK may have differing interpretations of what patriotism is and why we are patriotic, but that doesn't mean that either of us is right or wrong. Just that in any discussion about how you feel about things and any discussion about the nature of the state/countries you are going to be discussing slightly abstract concepts.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As Blagsta rightly points out, there are so many people, who differ so greatly, and have so many unique interpretations of what our country is (and has been), that the idea of loving such a wishy-washy, vague concept seems bizarre to me.

    Erm... isn't this why it is subjective.

    What I love about being Brtish is what I see as a culture of sticking up for the underdog, for example. That isn't necessarily what makes other people feel pride in our country - Ian Wright would argue that we should only laud winners.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Erm... isn't this why it is subjective.

    What I love about being Brtish is what I see as a culture of sticking up for the underdog, for example. That isn't necessarily what makes other people feel pride in our country - Ian Wright would argue that we should only laud winners.

    I understand what you're saying, but I think it could be convincingly argued that sticking up for the underdog isn't exclusively a British trait, nor is it even a trait exhibited by the majority of Brits. I think what you've really got then is respect for a particular mentality, but a respect which really can't be attributed to something as vast and as diverse as Britain.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    danbola wrote: »
    Iam from Australia and if theres one thing that we lack in it's patriotism! We are one of the most multicultural societies in the world and people dont consider themselves an "Aussie" unless they are from an English-anglo saxxon background. They even tried to ban the Australian flag on Australia day, (which is like our independance day) because it was too offensive to other nationalities.

    You can still be a patriot and live in a multicultural society. I know what you mean about banning the flag though, if you put a flag up in your window people could consider it 'racist'. Or maybe that's just papers like the Sun stirring trouble? :chin:

    Tbh, I think that the homogonisation(spl?) of our highstreets by big companies is more worrying and a bigger threat to our culture than multiculturalism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Erm... isn't this why it is subjective.

    What I love about being Brtish is what I see as a culture of sticking up for the underdog, for example. That isn't necessarily what makes other people feel pride in our country - Ian Wright would argue that we should only laud winners.

    I would suggest that what you feel isn't patriotism. I feel/think something similar - there are many aspects of Britishness that I love. Sticking up for the underdog that you mentioned, innovative youth cultures/music/subcultures, a scepticism of authority etc.

    However that is a different thing from patriotism, which has connotations of nationalism, of "official" histories and jingoism. Look at the definitions in the link I posted - "devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.", "love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it; "they rode the same wave of popular patriotism"; "British nationalism was in the air and patriotic sentiments ran high"" etc. (italics mine).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    Who decides what "bettering my Nation" means?

    As philosophical as you might be, sometimes you just have to go with the flow on what is and is not better or an improvement. Im sure a smoker who loves to smoke when ever and where ever would think a blanket smoking ban was in no way an improvement where as others might think it is as it will be better for the general health of people with in a nation.

    It's just about doing what you think is best and right. Does EVERYTHING have to be questioned endlessly? I mean, take a moment to chill and let things happen, don't analyse every little thing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You haven't an answer then.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sorry, that was rather a curt reply.

    I don't necessarily have answers either. However, I do wonder how you come to believe what you do if you don't ask questions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    I don't necessarily have answers either. However, I do wonder how you come to believe what you do if you don't ask questions.

    I don't necessarily think bringing class/economics into debates as if that's the mode every debate must be based on is that helpful either.

    What Gramsci says may be an astute critical analysis but that doesn't mean he's right.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    I don't necessarily think bringing class/economics into debates as if that's the mode every debate must be based on is that helpful either.

    How does it not come into it?
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    What Gramsci says may be an astute critical analysis but that doesn't mean he's right.

    No, it doesn't. If you disagree, then constuct a cogent argument as to why.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    How does it not come into it?

    It does, some more so than others. You assume that it's the main thing in any debate when it's not always.
    Blagsta wrote: »
    No, it doesn't. If you disagree, then constuct a cogent argument as to why.

    That culture is generated through compromises between the ruling elite and working classes as a way to supplement economic power? That just assumes the working class are clueless to what the ruling elite wants to do with them and are blinded by culture to see the "truth." Bollocks.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    What if being involved in those political things you mention brings you into conflict with the state (which it does)? It then begs the question as to who gets to define what your country is.
    The government =/= the nation.
    I am a patriot. I love my country, I love its history and achievements, but I do not agree with the way it is run at present. I can love my country and hate the government at the same time.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    It does, some more so than others. You assume that it's the main thing in any debate when it's not always.

    It's always quite a major factor.
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    That culture is generated through compromises between the ruling elite and working classes as a way to supplement economic power? That just assumes the working class are clueless to what the ruling elite wants to do with them and are blinded by culture to see the "truth." Bollocks.

    Why do you think it assumes that?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The government =/= the nation.

    Yes I know that.
    I am a patriot. I love my country, I love its history and achievements, but I do not agree with the way it is run at present. I can love my country and hate the government at the same time.

    You've completely ignored my point.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    Why do you think it assumes that?

    Because people aren't just stupid enough to give consent to such matters. It just generates ideas of intellectual leaders in dark rooms laughing away while the poor working man falls for his plan. Bullshit.

    Also, in Ireland, the whole idea of rebellion/revolution is entrenched in our culture, through song and literature. Why the fuck would any government let such a value be a part of it's culture if it might promote rebellion?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    Because people aren't just stupid enough to give consent to such matters. It just generates ideas of intellectual leaders in dark rooms laughing away while the poor working man falls for his plan. Bullshit.

    Eh? :confused:

    Maybe to you it does, but that's not what is intendend.
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    Also, in Ireland, the whole idea of rebellion/revolution is entrenched in our culture, through song and literature. Why the fuck would any government let such a value be a part of it's culture if it might promote rebellion?

    Its not a matter of government's "letting" something happen. It's a process of negotiation. You yourself said that people aren't clueless. Some ideas are too powerful. However, things become recuperated and thus stripped of power. Now I don't live in Ireland and know very little about the culture there, but I would guess that there are tourist tours or pubs that take advantage of the history of rebellion against the English? Think about Che Guevera t-shirts for example.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Having a sense of national identity and pride is intrinsic to any healthy society. If people's work is devoted to improving the national good, satisfaction and motivation in life and career is achievable; working on the global plantation for some international, culture-destroying corporation is generally not.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    I would suggest that what you feel isn't patriotism. I feel/think something similar - there are many aspects of Britishness that I love. Sticking up for the underdog that you mentioned, innovative youth cultures/music/subcultures, a scepticism of authority etc.

    In other words, anything which promotes your dream vision of anarchist utopia. :o
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote: »
    In other words, anything which promotes your dream vision of anarchist utopia. :o

    Errrr...yeah mate. :confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote: »
    In other words, anything which promotes your dream vision of anarchist utopia. :o

    Hardly. Nothing there about anarchy, more about being an individual and not just one in a crowd.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nothing there about anarchy

    Nothing explicit.
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