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Patriotism

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock? seeker? ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well, if patriotism is pride in the achievements of your countrymen then clearly it has fuck all to do with your Government...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You're avoiding the question.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No I'm not, I trying to work out what it is...

    Oh, as an aside, a patriot can also be someone who will act in defense of what they see as intrusion by their government
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The question is - who gets to decide what it means to be British and patriotic.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    The question is - who gets to decide what it means to be British and patriotic.

    We're not American, so nobody really. I never heard unBritish used as an insult and even unEnglish seems to be only used at people who cheat in sports.

    I think Simon Schama summed it up best at the end of History of Britain when he talks about both Winston Churchill and George Orwell both being British icons and it being possible to be proud of both.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This thread is covering the same issues that were covered in the "British or not" thread. Who gets to define Britishness? What power relations are in play?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sorry are we going to get into a whole white ruling class power thing here because if we are then I think that you are barking up the wrong tree Blagsta.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    This thread is covering the same issues that were covered in the "British or not" thread. Who gets to define Britishness? What power relations are in play?

    No-one defines Britishness. Its not like there's an officially approved check list - believes in fair play 'tick', likes cricket 'tick'*

    Being British is something else - with lots of caveats you're British if you're born in the UK (and arguably Gibraltar, Isle of Man etc), born to British parents temporarily abroad or live here and decide to become naturalised.

    Now you may not like the fact and call yourself a citizen of the world or People's Republic of Tooting Beck, but that's a different matter.

    * though as possibly one of only two people from Northern Ireland or Scotland who likes cricket that may be even an English thing
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sorry are we going to get into a whole white ruling class power thing here because if we are then I think that you are barking up the wrong tree Blagsta.

    What? :confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No-one defines Britishness. Its not like there's an officially approved check list - believes in fair play 'tick', likes cricket 'tick'*

    Being British is something else - with lots of caveats you're British if you're born in the UK (and arguably Gibraltar, Isle of Man etc), born to British parents temporarily abroad or live here and decide to become naturalised.

    Now you may not like the fact and call yourself a citizen of the world or People's Republic of Tooting Beck, but that's a different matter.

    * though as possibly one of only two people from Northern Ireland or Scotland who likes cricket that may be even an English thing


    If no one defines it, then its meaningless. Where does that leave patriotism?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's an individual thing but mainly it's about a shared history - good or bad - and we will have different perspectives on whether we should feel shame or pride. Ultimately we end up with the same basic starting point - our country and it's people.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    What? :confused:

    You were talking about power relations, and that isn't applicable really.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    If no one defines it, then its meaningless. Where does that leave patriotism?

    Patriotism is subjective. Therefore my definition will be different from yours.
    Britishness is more to do with nationalism than patriotism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You were talking about power relations, and that isn't applicable really.

    You'll have to explain that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's an individual thing but mainly it's about a shared history - good or bad - and we will have different perspectives on whether we should feel shame or pride. Ultimately we end up with the same basic starting point - our country and it's people.

    Whose history?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    migpilot wrote: »
    Patriotism is subjective. Therefore my definition will be different from yours.
    Britishness is more to do with nationalism than patriotism.

    So what is patriotism then?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    So what is patriotism then?

    I thought I already said what I thought patriotism was... :thumb:
    migpilot wrote:
    Patriotism is not something you can define, dissect and lay it out for all to see.
    Patriotism is a feeling and most feeling cannot be articulated.
    Also, what I see as patriotism is a personal thing to me and others will see it differently maybe, or the same.
    People make a mistake and confuse patriotism with nationalism and they are two different concepts.

    I think I am patriotic. I want my country to do well, I want to see people from my country and especially from the area I come from to do well, if I see someone from my country I will feel a natural connection with them just because we are from the same country. I respect the traditions and the history of my country and I would defend it without thinking twice. I also recognize things my country has done wrong and things that are wrong in the country. I am proud of it and I would gladly fly the flag. Like I said, it's a feeling and maybe it's hard to put it into words without sounding fanatical or something.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What traditions? Whose traditions? Whose history? Written by who? From what perspective? Defend it in what circumstances? What if we had an elected fascist government?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    If no one defines it, then its meaningless. Where does that leave patriotism?

    I can define what Britishness means to me, others will have different definitions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    Whose history?

    You're getting as bad as Klintock
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    What traditions? Whose traditions? Whose history? Written by who? From what perspective? Defend it in what circumstances? What if we had an elected fascist government?

    Are you saying that a country and its history can be nebulous concepts? - if so well done. Its hardly an earth shattering discovery. There's an old saying 'nations don't invent nationalists, nationalists invent nations'.*

    None of that invalidate the idea of patriotism, which to me is just basically the concept we are part of a wider community than just those people we personally know and feel some loyalty and affinity towards those people, based on common culture and a collective agreement about the past.



    * may be quote, but can't be arsed to google it now.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You're getting as bad as Klintock

    Why, just because I think critically about issues of power, politics and culture?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Are you saying that a country and its history can be nebulous concepts? - if so well done. Its hardly an earth shattering discovery. There's an old saying 'nations don't invent nationalists, nationalists invent nations'.*

    None of that invalidate the idea of patriotism, which to me is just basically the concept we are part of a wider community than just those people we personally know and feel some loyalty and affinity towards those people, based on common culture and a collective agreement about the past.



    * may be quote, but can't be arsed to google it now.

    I'm trying to find out what people mean by patriotism and how they come to decide what it means to be British and to love their country. It's becoming clear that most people haven't given it much thought.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    Why, just because I think critically about issues of power, politics and culture?

    No, because you ask questions and never put forward any answers.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, because you ask questions and never put forward any answers.

    Maybe you should pay attention then.
    http://vbulletin.thesite.org/showpost.php?p=1905541&postcount=7
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Right so that says you're not patriotic.

    It fails to say why patriotism doesn't exist or shouldn't exist.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Right so that says you're not patriotic.

    It fails to say why patriotism doesn't exist or shouldn't exist.

    I don't understand what you mean. Why do you want me to say whether it does exist? Obviously it does. Should it exist? That's a meaningless question. Exist in what context?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    Whose history?

    I could say "read the thread", but I'll try and put this as simply as possible for you.

    We all have the same history, just different perspectives on the same moments in time.

    For example, some people will see the slave trade as a bad thing and something to be ashamed of, others see it as what built our country and therefore something to be proud of. The fact that we were one of the first to abolish it is seen by some as a sign of our national maturity and therefore something to be proud of, while others see it as a sign of weakness.

    Everyone therefore, on the same issue, is likely to either have a sense of pride in what our countrymen did or a sense of same.

    It really isn't rocket science Blagsta.

    What we feel patriotic about might differ but we are likely to have some sense of it in many issues.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I had you down as being more of a critical thinker than this MoK. You never heard the saying "history is written by the winners"? Or even "it's not made by great men" (to quote Gang of Four)? There is not one narrative of history, there are many different narratives (as you yourself partly touch on when you say we have different perspectives). It's not as simple as to say "we all share a history" - the narratives we construct to explain our lives will be different depending on where we sit in society, the power we have, the identities we construct.

    To merely say "it's about shared history" is far far too simple - whose history, constructed by who, in what interests?
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