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Patriotism

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    I had you down as being more of a critical thinker than this MoK. You never heard the saying "history is written by the winners"? Or even "it's not made by great men" (to quote Gang of Four)? There is not one narrative of history, there are many different narratives (as you yourself partly touch on when you say we have different perspectives). It's not as simple as to say "we all share a history" - the narratives we construct to explain our lives will be different depending on where we sit in society, the power we have, the identities we construct.

    To merely say "it's about shared history" is far far too simple - whose history, constructed by who, in what interests?


    I think you are trying to hard to analyse something.

    There is only shared history, nothing else. Maybe you and I do not have all the details of every event but they are all part of our past and each event impacts on another. There is more which unites than divides. You seem to be looking for the divisions.

    Sure my view of (to maintain an example) the slave trade may not be the same as someone from Ghana, but it is shared all the same.

    You and I have a shared history, but we have difference perspectives on many events.

    You said "You never heard the saying "history is written by the winners"?" but that's bunkum. History is written by those involved and by those who later analyse it - as any historian will tell you.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    What if being involved in those political things you mention brings you into conflict with the state (which it does)? It then begs the question as to who gets to define what your country is.

    Your country isn't defined by those in power. It's the legacy of the people who fought for the creation and preservation of the country. That's why Beckett, Parnell, Connolly, Joyce, Pearse and Griffith have always intrigued me.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    What traditions? Whose traditions? Whose history? Written by who? From what perspective? Defend it in what circumstances? What if we had an elected fascist government?

    You think culture is some new fad, a tanscient entity, defined by those in power? If you do then you're an idiot.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think you are trying to hard to analyse something.

    There is only shared history, nothing else. Maybe you and I do not have all the details of every event but they are all part of our past and each event impacts on another. There is more which unites than divides. You seem to be looking for the divisions.

    Sure my view of (to maintain an example) the slave trade may not be the same as someone from Ghana, but it is shared all the same.

    You and I have a shared history, but we have difference perspectives on many events.

    You said "You never heard the saying "history is written by the winners"?" but that's bunkum. History is written by those involved and by those who later analyse it - as any historian will tell you.

    You don't know much about history, critical theory or philosophies of knowledge I guess. There is never just one version of history - there are different histories - as any historian will tell you. For example, E P Thompson's "The Making of the English Working Class" is a different history from what you get taught in school. We construct meanings from history and the meanings we construct are contingent on our perspectives. These things need to be analysed because they're far from straightforward.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    You think culture is some new fad, a tanscient entity, defined by those in power? If you do then you're an idiot.

    Stop constructing ridiculous straw men.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    Your country isn't defined by those in power. It's the legacy of the people who fought for the creation and preservation of the country. That's why Beckett, Parnell, Connolly, Joyce, Pearse and Griffith have always intrigued me.

    I didn't say it was. What I am doing is asking questions as to who gets to define a country's culture. You don't seem to have ever given it any thought.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    There is never just one version of history - there are different histories - as any historian will tell you.

    I never said that there was one version of history. I said there is just one history. Different things.
    For example, E P Thompson's "The Making of the English Working Class" is a different history from what you get taught in school.

    Which was kind of my point, it's the same history, from different perspective.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In answer to the original question, which i know i am coming to late, yes, i think of myself as a Patriot and am Patriotic. I stand by beliefs and ideas of maintaining and increasing and bettering my Nation.

    I also believe in Britain, despite its now crumbling position into seperate Nations, as opposed to a united union of countries.

    If a threat were to come to Britain/England i would fight to protect my Country.

    However, that does not mean i would happily sign up into the armed forces to go and fight in any war against anyone. Or stand by what ever Prime Minister we have at any given time. I would have happily gone to war for Churchill in World War 2 and happily did all i could for my country in the Cold War. But i wouldnt die for my country during an invasion of another Nation.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    I'm trying to find out what people mean by patriotism and how they come to decide what it means to be British and to love their country. It's becoming clear that most people haven't given it much thought.

    Not once have I said I that I was British. :thumb:
    And like I said, being British or German or French is a matter of nationalism, not patriotism. Although being patriotic can mean that you are proud of being British, but not the other way around.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I know specification to a country is nationalism, But although you can be patriotic to Earth, there isnt a single united world here... yet. So, thats why to me, Patriotism is to a country, my country and not in general to a collective or group at random. I think it has to be a nation to be Patriotism, but thats my opinion.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    I didn't say it was. What I am doing is asking questions as to who gets to define a country's culture. You don't seem to have ever given it any thought.

    Who do you think defines it? It's the people of course.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I never said that there was one version of history. I said there is just one history. Different things.



    Which was kind of my point, it's the same history, from different perspective.

    Well seeing as we can never know for sure what happened in the past because all the evidence we have is filtered through different people's perspectives, it amounts to the same thing. History does not have a fixed meaning - it is contingent on perspective and is constantly being re-written.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    Who do you think defines it? It's the people of course.

    :banghead:

    Which people? Do they all have equal say?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Bullseye wrote: »
    In answer to the original question, which i know i am coming to late, yes, i think of myself as a Patriot and am Patriotic. I stand by beliefs and ideas of maintaining and increasing and bettering my Nation.

    I also believe in Britain, despite its now crumbling position into seperate Nations, as opposed to a united union of countries.

    If a threat were to come to Britain/England i would fight to protect my Country.

    However, that does not mean i would happily sign up into the armed forces to go and fight in any war against anyone. Or stand by what ever Prime Minister we have at any given time. I would have happily gone to war for Churchill in World War 2 and happily did all i could for my country in the Cold War. But i wouldnt die for my country during an invasion of another Nation.

    Who decides what "bettering my Nation" means?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    migpilot wrote: »
    Not once have I said I that I was British. :thumb:
    And like I said, being British or German or French is a matter of nationalism, not patriotism. Although being patriotic can mean that you are proud of being British, but not the other way around.

    I was using "British" as an example.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    Which people? Do they all have equal say?

    Equal say in what? You trying to say Governments make up culture or something? It's something you can't explain, only experience it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    Equal say in what? You trying to say Governments make up culture or something? It's something you can't explain, only experience it.

    Its quite a simple question. Who gets to determine what is culturally relevant?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    Who gets to determine what is culturally relevant?

    Whoever wants it to be culturally relevant. I'm sure a first generation Nigerian here won't be as enthused about Irish Traditional music as I would, still doesn't mean for a country that Irish Traditional music is culturally relevant.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    Whoever wants it to be culturally relevant. I'm sure a first generation Nigerian here won't be as enthused about Irish Traditional music as I would, still doesn't mean for a country that Irish Traditional music is culturally relevant.


    So everyone has equal power do they?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Have you ever read any cultural studies theories? You familiar with Stuart Hall, Antonio Gramsci or Louis Althusser, for example?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    So everyone has equal power do they?

    I don't get you. Could you please elaborate?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    I don't get you. Could you please elaborate?

    Its a simple question. I can't put it any more simply. What determines which things become culturally relevant? Don't just say "the people". Which people?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    Have you ever read any cultural studies theories? You familiar with Stuart Hall, Antonio Gramsci or Louis Althusser, for example?

    I've heard of Gramsci.

    No, but I'm doing a module on social and cultural contours of Europe this semester so I might learn something there.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    I've heard of Gramsci.

    So you're familiar with the concept of hegemony?
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    No, but I'm doing a module on social and cultural contours of Europe this semester so I might learn something there.

    Get hold of this book

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    Which people?

    The people who partake in activities that are unique to that country, and those who can appreciate that uniqueness.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    So you're familiar with the concept of hegemony?

    Yes. Political hegemony anyway.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    The people who partake in activities that are unique to that country, and those who can appreciate that uniqueness.

    :banghead:

    Which people?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    Yes. Political hegemony anyway.

    If you're familiar with the concept of hegemony, then you must have thought about the questions I'm asking, surely?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    If you're familiar with the concept of hegemony, then you must have thought about the questions I'm asking, surely?

    Ok you win. It's hegemony.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What is?
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