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FAO those who think Israel's actions have been justified & proportioned

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'll be the first to admit Aladdin that I'm not entirely comfortable with what Israel is doing, for a start Israel sometimes seems to make things easier for extremist organisations in the West like the boycott Israel brigade - many involved with such organisations being like the Iranian president opposed to the very existence of the State of Israel. With the odd instance of Israeli carelessness and the Israel hating BBC such organisations are I fear not struggling to win new followers. It's a two way street but Israel needs to pursue closer relations with the EU and Russia to raise the prospect of there being some trustworthy intermediary between Israel and her enemies in the Middle East. Currently there's little trust between Israel and the EU and Russia. Admittedly, Israel a few years ago expressed a genuine interest in joining the EU only to be swiftly rebuffed and ridiculed by the vile Chris Patten who was European Commissioner for foreign relations at the time. Thing is with better relations with other international powers Israel might have been able to negotiate in this latest instance before instantly responding with force to the provocation from Hezbollah/Iran.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    disillusioned dont you think israels massivw response is what these groups want..... it gives them more recruits and ultimately more power
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think Israels plan is to kill so many of their enemies that they will have no one left to recruit...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    disillusioned dont you think israels massivw response is what these groups want..... it gives them more recruits and ultimately more power

    If there is an immediate ceasefire you would be absolutely correct. Hezbollah would emerge stronger remaining intact and the threat from Hezbollah and its sponsors Iran and Syria would remain.

    The unfortunate fact is Israel has little choice, the kidnapping of soldiers from within Israeli territory merited a forceful response. The stark reality of their plight when the fate of previously kidnapped soldiers is considered is a depressing thought. Invasive rocket attacks into Israeli territory, indeed thousands of such missile attacks have left Israel with no alternative The existence of an enemy which can and will conduct such attacks is intolerable, Hezbollah must be disarmed and dismantled. (Indeed any supporter of Lebanese sovereignty too can surely not accept a situation where the private army of Hezbollah is stronger than Lebanon's).

    The danger that Hezbollah acting in collusion with Iran poses is not a danger limited to Israel. Indeed, Sunni Muslim states like Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia are extremely concerned by Hezbollah and the prospect of an even more powerful Iran, with the barbaric Ahmadinejad at the helm the entire region is threatened - explaining the pretty muted criticism of Israel by Egypt, etc.

    From past experience Israel is completely aware that appeasing Hezbollah with prisoner exchanges does not lead to long term stability. The missile attacks from Hezbollah which started long before this escalation are unacceptable and I cannot condemn Israel for defending itself.

    That said there must be even greater openness with regard to the Israeli government and the IDF and there must be a complete investigation and disciplinary action into any Israeli wrongdoings.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    subject13 wrote:
    I think Israels plan is to kill so many of their enemies that they will have no one left to recruit...

    Another intelligent and well informed insight. :rolleyes: I presume you are unfamiliar with the tactics of Hezbollah themselves which have maximised civilian casualties in Lebanon. The fact is Israel wishes to end this as soon as possible but for as long as Hezbollah supported by Iran has the capabilities to fire missiles deep into Israel and until the IDF troops are returned Israel must carry on.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    Dis... your line of thought makes little sense!

    You are still taking the Mecication... right?
    And slip me a few of whatever your on... it seems good!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Meanwhile in Gaza...
    Israeli military attacks in the Gaza Strip have killed 23 Palestinians, including several children, witnesses and medical sources say.
    At least 11 militants were among the dead, but many civilians were also killed, and about 70 people were hurt.

    The raids come amid Israeli efforts to release a soldier captured by Palestinian militants last month.

    About 140 Palestinians and one Israeli soldier have been killed since Israel launched its offensive.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5215608.stm


    *Awaits for the usual suspects' attempt at justifying such actions*
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Another intelligent and well informed insight. :rolleyes: I presume you are unfamiliar with the tactics of Hezbollah themselves which have maximised civilian casualties in Lebanon. The fact is Israel wishes to end this as soon as possible but for as long as Hezbollah supported by Iran has the capabilities to fire missiles deep into Israel and until the IDF troops are returned Israel must carry on.


    Actually Dis, i probably know much more about this then you do. As in this case i have studied both Foreign Policy Analysis and International Relations which focused heavily on Israel and its neighbours.

    Simply put, i am right, the Israelis are trying to end this by removing any and all of their enemies and potential enemies while simultaneously recapturing and capturing any and all territory they have ever had or had designs on.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    subject13 wrote:
    Actually Dis, i probably know much more about this then you do. As in this case i have studied both Foreign Policy Analysis and International Relations which focused heavily on Israel and its neighbours.

    Simply put, i am right, the Israelis are trying to end this by removing any and all of their enemies and potential enemies while simultaneously recapturing and capturing any and all territory they have ever had or had designs on.

    I'm uninterested in what you claim to have studied. I certainly know that those who indisputably know a lot more about foreign policy and this region than you, Fellows of the Middle Eastern programme at Chatham House for example would ridicule your 'theory.'

    Israel has not even launched a land invasion yet. Israel left Lebanon and Gaza long ago with no intention of going back. Anyway time will prove you wrong, Israel has no desire to hold on to territory in Gaza or Lebanon.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Meanwhile the row over the US using Britain as a fuelling stop for his Flights of Death to Israel escalates:

    Britain humiliated by US
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm uninterested in what you claim to have studied. I certainly know that those who indisputably know a lot more about foreign policy and this region than you, Fellows of the Middle Eastern programme at Chatham House for example would ridicule your 'theory.'

    Israel has not even launched a land invasion yet. Israel left Lebanon and Gaza long ago with no intention of going back. Anyway time will prove you wrong, Israel has no desire to hold on to territory in Gaza or Lebanon.


    Considering the build up of Ground forces ready to launch into and occupy Lebonnon, i think a land invasion and the recapture of lost territory and all territory that they have ever had designs on is the actual reason for the sudden massive escalation by the Israelis.

    Unlike your chosen sources, i have not limited myself to those who only support my own preconceptions. I have examined the situation from many sides.

    Traditionally i stand by Israel, at least in its dealings at crishing the Palestinians and making a united Israel territory, most on this board will know i am traditionally an Israel supporter. However the completely unneccessary assault on Lebonnon as forced me for once to change my support. I do not support Hezbollah or Hamas, i simply no longer can stand by the Israeli actions.

    Time will prove me right, especially, when Israel seizes control of all that empty deserted territory they will have passified with its bombs.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Meanwhile the row over the US using Britain as a fuelling stop for his Flights of Death to Israel escalates:

    Britain humiliated by US

    Adam Boulton earlier reported it as not being about weapons being sold to Israel coming through Britain but the only problem being that the paperwork wasn't in order. Of course the liberal media are loving this pretty minor disagreement and making it out to be much more than it is. Personally I really cannot see any problem at all.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    subject13 wrote:
    Time will prove me right

    We'll see. Are you a betting man? :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Adam Boulton earlier reported it as not being about weapons being sold to Israel coming through Britain but the only problem being that the paperwork wasn't in order. Of course the liberal media are loving this pretty minor disagreement and making it out to be much more than it is. Personally I really cannot see any problem at all.
    A lot of MPs do, and not just because of a paperwork issue.

    Once again, Britain is laughed at and shown as an insignificant puppet of the US, treated with utter contempt by its master. Not to mention being an accessory to murder by collaborating in the arming of Israel with massive high-explosive bombs that are going to kill many more innocient civilians.

    And the fucking hypocrite cunts the US government are complain that Iran is supplying Hezbollah with rockets.

    LOL!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    We'll see. Are you a betting man? :p


    On occasion! ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh. my. god. I'd better check for pigs flying in the sky.

    The United States has expressed 'outrage'... at Israel!!

    This relates to the hilarious comments by the Israeli government that the failure of the world leaders to demand an immediate ceasefire during their meeting in Rome meant "the world has given permission to Israel to continue the offensive"
    The US state department has dismissed as "outrageous" a suggestion by Israel that it has been authorised by the world to continue bombing Lebanon.
    "The US is sparing no efforts to bring a durable and lasting end to this conflict," said spokesman Adam Ereli.

    Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon made the suggestion after powers meeting in Rome refrained from demanding an immediate ceasefire.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5223940.stm

    I have to say, not even at the worst of the atrocities Israel has commited in the past has the US expressed anything stronger than "regret".

    Could this finally signal the beginning of the end of the free run Israel has been given to commit Crimes Against Humanity for decades completely unmolested?

    We can only hope so :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Could this finally signal the beginning of the end of the free run Israel has been given to commit Crimes Against Humanity for decades completely unmolested?

    We can only hope so :)

    Doubtful. The US is already under a lot of pressure from other Middle East fiascos, they have to express anger to even the balance out, home and abroad. There's too many Zionist lobbiests in the White House for there to be any real change soon.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As you say, Aladdin, we can only hope so...

    I don't hold out much hope though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    By having a long term goal of controlling the Middle East and ensuring there are puppet/friendly governments in every country in the area I suppose.

    If the US is supporting turmoil in the area as well as a strong Israel pounding neighbouring nations into submission, you could say they're doing so with the ultimate mid or long term goal of removing all unfriendly governments and installing puppet regimes in their place. This would ensure many decades of dead cheap oil supply to American SUVs.

    But US support for israel makes the nations with the oil less friendly to the US.

    If you wanted the oil states to be client regimes then it would make no sense whatsoever for your main ally in the region to be the No.1 enemy of the oil states and to back them in doing things that make the oil nations more hostile.

    The US is already friendly with the Saudis but unconditional support for the Israelis could only damage that relationship.

    The idea that US foreign policy is motivated to any large degree by oil interests is a fantasy......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    The idea that US foreign policy is motivated to any large degree by oil interests is a fantasy......

    A large part does though. Do you really think the US would waste billions of dollars, thousands of lives just for freedom and democracy? I think the US thought they'd get an easy ride after Afghanistan and just fell into the hole that is Iraq, they can't go out now. Oil is running low, it will be a very profitable aquisition for the US in the future. There are other factors aswell but oil is a major one.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    The idea that US foreign policy is motivated to any large degree by oil interests is a fantasy......
    Tell that to the Iraqis.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Tell that to the Iraqis.

    How has the Iraq war helped the US oil situation?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    How has the Iraq war helped the US oil situation?


    they thought they could install a popular puppet government, they failed......


    nigeria is unstable and still produces a lot of oil because of the armed forces strangely around their pipelines
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    they thought they could install a popular puppet government, they failed......


    How would that of helped?

    Surely by far the easiest way to get oil from Iraq would have been to remain saddams buddy as it has been repeated so many times on here, they used to be?

    If you want a secure and abundant source of oil you don't attack the country where it is being produced.

    Again the war for oil hypothesis is nonsense, even a very basic analysis of the situation shows this to be the case.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't know about this point of going to war for oil. I sometimes feel this is a scenario drawn up by critics of President Bush, who point out his many links in the past to large oil companies. I believe he used to run one himself, correct me if I'm wrong. Pointing out such links is not wrong at all, but it does raise more questions than it answers.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    How has the Iraq war helped the US oil situation?
    The idea was to ensure multiple sources of cheap oil from reliable and stable sources.

    Saudi Arabia has been a ticking bomb for some time now. There was enormous benefit to be gained from a successful occupation of Iraq. For starters it would gurantee a stable source of cheap oil should Saudi Arabia implode, and also Iraq would provide the US an invaluable base from which launch an offensive on Saudi.

    I have no doubt whatsoever that played a very important part on the decision to go to war on Iraq- even if not the only one.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    An offensive on saudi Arabia?

    Thats a new one, where the hell did you get that from?

    Earlier you were saying the Us intended to create turmoil in the area, now you are saying they aimed for stability but failed spectaculalry, which is it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    An offensive on saudi Arabia?

    Thats a new one, where the hell did you get that from?

    Earlier you were saying the Us intended to create turmoil in the area, now you are saying they aimed for stability but failed spectaculalry, which is it?



    the problem with iraqs 'stable source' is that saddam wanted to trade in euros, which would have massive effect on the US economy, whilst saudi trades in dollars

    saudi is relatively stable atm, but there is the ever increasing problems with people wanting change there

    i dont know what aladdin was on about specifically but just to fill some holes
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The politics of the situation is far more complex then simply western puppets fighting a Western war against the Middle East. It is infact a war between the Middle East and the Middle East to see who gets to fight the West later.

    Secretley Saudi Arabia, Eqypt and the other Middle Eastern "Moderates" (i use that term loosely) support the actions of Israel and want them to keep the Middle East in turmoil around Israel so the problems do not spread nearer their own boarders. So long as Everyone is involved with Israel, Iran has to be involved with Israel too and so is no threat the established leaders of the "Moderates".

    Israel fights Hamas, who has the main aim of a state for Palestine. Hardcore Hamas members support the extermination and erasure of the state of Israel but that is a more long term and less sought aim. A state for Palestine is the main aim.

    Hezbollah has the main aim of taking over all of Lebonnon to create a solely Islamic state, while simultaneously crushing and destroying Israel. Now, Hezbollah has an alliance of convenience with Syria, purely because Syria desire to recapture territory they lost to Israel. The "Moderates" do not want to see an Islamic state in Lebonnon that could ally with Iran and threaten the cushy stability they have with the West.

    Syria's "friendship" with Iran is purely for convenience again. Iran has the aim of ending Israel but by NOT getting involved directley as that would weaken their own position.

    In essence the Middle East war is really a battle between Sunni's and Shi'a's for dominance, while the "Moderates" try to stand and form a line to stop any one side dominating. This aim has been weakened by Americas stupidity in taking Iraq out of the neutral zone and forcing them into the front lines of the Middle East conflict. Israel is stuck in the Middle of the conflict, perpetuating the conflict by their own actions and by their desires and designs on land and territory. Israel are poring fuel onto the fire, as are the Americans and so maintaining what is the status quo to keep the Middle East tied up with itself so the West can go on with mostly its standard ease and protect its "Allies" in the Region.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Talking to a friend of mine last night who has a Lebanese wife and goes over to the Lebanon quite a lot. Apparently 17% of Hizbollah are Christian. I never knew that.
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