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What would you do?

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    I supose it sounds too harsh. But there should be encouragement to do something with ones life post 16.
    If you're talking about drop-out rates, which are appallingly high in this country, you're completely right.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    I supose it sounds too harsh. But there should be encouragement to do something with ones life post 16.

    All we got at secondary was the talk about into 6th form and that was it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    but thats not true is it.
    you aint old enough to remembver hospitals with rain pouring through the rooves.
    most people are actualy do a lot better now than they ever could have hoped for when the boom and bust party ran things.
    there are of course many things wrong but please ...take a look around at what you have.
    Don't you think a lot of money is wasted?

    I agree we have good hospitals but a lot of money is wasted where it could be used in tax cuts.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote:
    Pledge to get rid of the armies of smoking cessation officers, five-a-day co-ordinators, and the tonnes of unnecessary NHS managers we have now, and I'd vote for you. :p
    Every political party claims they're gonna save money by being "more efficiant" and cutting unnecessary waste. It's all bullshit really.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sofie wrote:
    All we got at secondary was the talk about into 6th form and that was it.
    Exactly, there should be a lot more talk about the opportunities available as there are loads.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Every political party claims they're gonna save money by being "more efficiant" and cutting unnecessary waste. It's all bullshit really.
    So true.

    But in theory, they should be sacked and given more real jobs. The jobs they have been given are part of Labours nanny state which I disagree with.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    Don't you think a lot of money is wasted?

    I agree we have good hospitals but a lot of money is wasted where it could be used in tax cuts.
    money is always wasted in many ways no matter who's in power or where. can you point me to a sucsessful government anywhere? the government pour the millions in but it is then down to the mismanagement and incompetence of members of the public ...managers planners etc.
    for government to be able to cut waste to as near zero as possible means you would have to have seriously huge government ...in fact we'd all be working for them.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    money is always wasted in many ways no matter who's in power or where. can you point me to a sucsessful government anywhere? the government pour the millions in but it is then down to the mismanagement and incompetence of members of the public ...managers planners etc.
    for government to be able to cut waste to as near zero as possible means you would have to have seriously huge government ...in fact we'd all be working for them.
    I understand waste is quite inevitable but it's the scale of the waste which can be controlled.

    My government would spend very wisely and have close contacts with those who actually know what they're talking. Pressure Groups with insider status and of course, the public. :razz:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    I understand waste is quite inevitable but it's the scale of the waste which can be controlled.

    My government would spend very wisely and have close contacts with those who actually know what they're talking. Pressure Groups with insider status and of course, the public. :razz:
    you don't actualy remember them being in power ...seriously luke.
    your tories want smaller government ...lower taxes ...how you going to police three billion quid being spent on a motorway?
    that money fragments into cement nails screws wellies hats coats spanners fuel petty cash etc etc etc etc etc etc ....
    and talking of policing things ...tories and lower taxes resulted in the police force of this country being slashed to dangerous proportions and underfunded very seriously for hardware such as cars and comunications.
    this government have created thousands more coppers ...what you would want i pressume ...even a public uniformed presence as local eyes and ears ...surely this is the sort of situation a good tory would welcome?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke 88 sort your life out
    1) asylum seekers are needed in this country to work
    2)in most schools our teenagers are well behaved, but some are of the scale and need help not punishment
    The current system is failing as there is no respect for education or in the class room.
    have you been reading the mail and sun too much?
    3) most people i know that have just left school or even in school have jobs
    4)do you plan to stay in iraq indefinately?
    5)if we introduce full life prison sentences it means that the prisoners have nothing to live for and kill each other and the guards needlessly because it doesnt matter (eg several cases in america)
    6)those people who "scrounge" off benefits probably need more help and access to retraining, not some suit telling tham to get a job
    7)
    Health is more important than money
    whats privatisation again?
    8)EU legisaltion has done the uk loads of good especially in the banning of chemical substances that our government said were safe but EU testing reliased weren't, the EU is pressuring use to become more environmentally friendly especially through the examples of germany with recycling.
    9)the NHS is amazing, yes it needs to be improved but picking holes and not investing in it by incorporating privatisation isnt going to help. SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL NHS
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    you don't actualy remember them being in power ...seriously luke.
    your tories want smaller government ...lower taxes ...how you going to police three billion quid being spent on a motorway?
    that money fragments into cement nails screws wellies hats coats spanners fuel petty cash etc etc etc etc etc etc ....
    and talking of policing things ...tories and lower taxes resulted in the police force of this country being slashed to dangerous proportions and underfunded very seriously for hardware such as cars and comunications.
    this government have created thousands more coppers ...what you would want i pressume ...even a public uniformed presence as local eyes and ears ...surely this is the sort of situation a good tory would welcome?
    Yes, I do prefer well funded police force with more police but I wasn't referring to the Toires themselves. When I said 'my government' I actually meant my own policies.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    Yes, I do prefer well funded police force with more police but I wasn't referring to the Tories themselves. When I said 'my government' I actually meant my own policies.
    The Tories are part of the problem, not part of the solution. They are the ones who brought in a lot of the paperwork that blights our coppers now. New Labour simply made it worse. I understand Labour is facing huge debts, and could go bankrupt. Good. Let us hope the dreadful Tory Party also goes bankrupt and two new parties that truly represent Britain rise from the ashes.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    5)if we introduce full life prison sentences it means that the prisoners have nothing to live for and kill each other and the guards needlessly because it doesnt matter (eg several cases in america)

    There would also no point in trying to behave or indeed study for anything.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke 88 sort your life out
    I am doing thank you. I’m going university in October to study Politics. Woohooo
    1) asylum seekers are needed in this country to work
    Are you sure you understand the definition of an asylum seeker? They are fearing persecution, they don’t naturally come here to find work. Immigrants on the other hand do.
    2)in most schools our teenagers are well behaved, but some are of the scale and need help not punishment have you been reading the mail and sun too much?
    Yeah. Come to a Stoke-on-Trent secondary school, you’ll find everyone is so well behaved. Yes – I am being sarcastic.
    3) most people i know that have just left school or even in school have jobs
    Good on them!
    4)do you plan to stay in iraq indefinately?
    Until the job is done.
    5)if we introduce full life prison sentences it means that the prisoners have nothing to live for and kill each other and the guards needlessly because it doesnt matter (eg several cases in america)
    This policy intension is to prevent future criminals in this field, like I did state. They will think twice before they do the crime, if they want something to live for.
    6)those people who "scrounge" off benefits probably need more help and access to retraining, not some suit telling tham to get a job
    No, they need to learn that having a job is the best thing for them. Of course this can’t be applied absolutely, I mean, there are exceptions.
    7) whats privatisation again?
    Why are you asking this?
    8)EU legisaltion has done the uk loads of good especially in the banning of chemical substances that our government said were safe but EU testing reliased weren't, the EU is pressuring use to become more environmentally friendly especially through the examples of germany with recycling.

    I am pretty sure, we as UK citizens can vote for s government in this country that we have chosen. We don’t want another layer of government thank you. We can do the job our selves perfectly fine.
    9)the NHS is amazing, yes it needs to be improved but picking holes and not investing in it by incorporating privatisation isnt going to help. SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL NHS
    Support the NHS Yes. I did say keep the NHS free. But I do agree with private companies giving a helping hand.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sofie wrote:
    There would also no point in trying to behave or indeed study for anything.
    Don't commit the crime then. The punishment acts as a deterrant.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    Don't commit the crime then. The punishment acts as a deterrant.
    No they don't. America has a 'tougher' stance on crime than mainstream Europe, yet has a far bigger prison population, and higher levels of crime. Explain that one, if prison is acting as a deterrant. You've got to understand that if you have nothing, and you feel like your whole life is fucked up, prison isn't a deterrent at all.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    Don't commit the crime then. The punishment acts as a deterrant.

    How? Being in prison won't stop someone turning around and battering another prisoner, will it?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    money is always wasted in many ways no matter who's in power or where. can you point me to a sucsessful government anywhere? the government pour the millions in but it is then down to the mismanagement and incompetence of members of the public ...managers planners etc.
    for government to be able to cut waste to as near zero as possible means you would have to have seriously huge government ...in fact we'd all be working for them.
    I have this issue in my job. One of my roles is to cut down wastage and investigate any discrepancies in money, stock, etc. But if I'm not careful, I can end up spending ages investigating something that costs less that the company pays me for the amount of time it takes me to investigate it, which is just stupid.

    I think one of the problems with the NHS in particular isn't wastage, but poor management. I'm sure there are some good hospital managers out there, but a lot of them have come from other fields, so whilst they might be good managers, they don't necessarily have all the knowledge required to know how a hospital runs. The collection of data is necessary for managers to make effective decisions on how to improve service. If you collect no data, then you can't make informed decisions. However, if the collection of data impedes too much on the day-to-day running of the hospital, then service suffers. You notice this far more in a private business, because your service slows and people just stop spending money there. I think that the NHS currently (and the police), however, has gone far too much towards the collecting of data, so far that it is negatively affecting the service given. But then if you aren't collecting data, you can't get up in front of a room full of people and say "look how well we're doing, vote for us" can you?
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    luke88 wrote:
    Don't commit the crime then. The punishment acts as a deterrant.

    Yes, this has been shown to most obviously work, thats why people still commit crimes in countries like China, where they execute half of them.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No they don't. America has a 'tougher' stance on crime than mainstream Europe, yet has a far bigger prison population, and higher levels of crime. Explain that one, if prison is acting as a deterrant. You've got to understand that if you have nothing, and you feel like your whole life is fucked up, prison isn't a deterrent at all.
    Those who are thinking of commiting crimes should think of the outcome of it = no life.

    If they choose to break the law, it is not my fault they have chosen the tough life.

    This is why I am infavour of harsh sentencing. Not because I like to ruin lives, but because I don't want them commiting a crime in the first place.

    The U.S might have a bigger prison population because it has a bigger population? More severe with their sentencing? Etc.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sofie wrote:
    How? Being in prison won't stop someone turning around and battering another prisoner, will it?
    If they choose to do that they will be banged up 24/7. We all have a guift and that is choice.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    Yes, this has been shown to most obviously work, thats why people still commit crimes in countries like China, where they execute half of them.
    Crime will never be ridden but it can be very limited. It's true that someone will always be out there to break the law, but majority of people can avoid being in prison.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    If they choose to do that they will be banged up 24/7. We all have a guift and that is choice.

    So, you'd be alright with this if it was a member of your family being banged up 24/7 for the rest of their life because they killed someone whilst in prison?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sofie wrote:
    So, you'd be alright with this if it was a member of your family being banged up 24/7 for the rest of their life because they killed someone whilst in prison?
    I can't answer that as it depends on the circumstances.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    If they choose to break the law, it is not my fault they have chosen the tough life.
    Fair enough, but that doesn't get me my car stereo back, or fix my broken ribs that a mugger gave me. I'd much prefer a system that stops these people doing it in the first place. I look at societies with low rates of crime, and more often than not, they have what some might consider fairly leniant prison systems, preferring to focus on other forms of rehabilitation and punishment.
    luke88 wrote:
    The U.S might have a bigger prison population because it has a bigger population? More severe with their sentencing? Etc.
    Well of course figures take that into account. They have a higher percentage of their population behind bars than European countries.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No they don't. America has a 'tougher' stance on crime than mainstream Europe, yet has a far bigger prison population, and higher levels of crime. Explain that one, if prison is acting as a deterrant. You've got to understand that if you have nothing, and you feel like your whole life is fucked up, prison isn't a deterrent at all.

    Not true... Scotland has been named the most violent country in the developed world by the UN and excluding murder Scots are almost three times as likely to be assaulted as Americans. And while the murder rate is generally higher in the US (it varies hugely between different cities) assault, burglary and motor vehicle theft are all lower in America than in England and Wales. Interesting BBC article too here.

    According to the International Crime Survey:
    Contact crime, defined as robbery, sexual assault, and assault with force, was second highest in England and Wales (3.6% of those surveyed). The highest figure was for Australia, where it was 4.1%. The figure for the USA was 1.9% and for Japan, 0.4%.
    See here and here.
    People in England and Wales experienced more crime per head than any other country in the survey, 54.5 crimes per 100 inhabitants compared with an average of 35.2 per 100.
    People in England and Wales face the second highest risk of being a victim of crime. Australia was the worst with 30% of its people victims of crime in 2000, followed by England and Wales with 26.4%.

    In the US crime is still falling and not through politicians manipulating statistics, places like New York and Chicago are far safer than they were 10 or 20 years ago. I don't think Britain can boast any such achievements, if anything a lot of British cities are less safe today than they were 10-20 years ago.

    Although in Britain crime did actually fall in the 1990s when Michael Howard as Home Secretary increased the likelihood of criminals going to jail.
    From the early 1980s until the mid-1990s the risk of imprisonment increased in the USA and the crime rate fell; while in England and Wales the opposite happened: the risk of imprisonment fell and the crime rate increased. Then, from 1993, policy in England and Wales was reversed and the risk of imprisonment increased, though it remained historically low. Even this relatively small increase in the use of prison was followed by a reduction in crime.
    - Civitas report.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not true... Scotland has been named the most violent country in the developed world by the UN and excluding murder Scots are almost three times as likely to be assaulted as Americans. And while the murder rate is generally higher in the US (it varies hugely between different cities) assault, burglary and motor vehicle theft are all lower in America than in England and Wales.
    I would suspect that's more down to the risk of getting shot in America whilst carrying out these types of crime, rather than the risk of a prison sentence. Of course then you have the trade off of having a far higher risk of being shot in America than Britain. I'll get back to you on the rest. :thumb:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fair enough, but that doesn't get me my car stereo back, or fix my broken ribs that a mugger gave me. I'd much prefer a system that stops these people doing it in the first place. I look at societies with low rates of crime, and more often than not, they have what some might consider fairly leniant prison systems, preferring to focus on other forms of rehabilitation and punishment.
    Punishment and rehabilitation should happen simultaneously.

    Punishment is the only way where justice can happen. I mean, if someone had murdered my sister, for no reason I would like them to serve time in prison for the rest of their lives. I would then feel justice has taken place and I can rest. Yeah it wouldn't be bring my sister back but I will bring him down as much as he brought me and mu family down and taken my sisters life away!

    But for other crimes such as stealing, the criminal should be punished by a prison sentence but most of their time in there should be about making them into a person they aspire to be.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So you think it'd be alright to let someone rot in prison?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    2)in most schools our teenagers are well behaved, but some are of the scale and need help not punishment have you been reading the mail and sun too much?
    No. The ones that are off the scale do need punishment - that's the problem. They know damn well they can do whatever the fuck they like, & if the teacher tries to punish them they can whine about their human rights being violated by being told what to do, or claim the teacher abused them & get the teacher fired.

    And before you say 'You're lying this never happens in real life OMG!' - someone I know is a teacher, & had one of her pupils say to her "I can get you sacked if I want".
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