discipline in schools

Former Member

Blagsta wrote:

Other people have already pointed it out, but for the record - mods and rockers fighting on Brighton beach in the 60's, Teddy Boys and flicknives in the 50's, just because there were fewer "broken families" does not mean that there was less misery and abuse in the home etc etc

the mods and rockers etc were organised meets to have a punch up ...half a dozen a year maybe.
there has always been violence but ...not in schools as there is now.
there has always been violence in the pubs but ...not in schools.
there were bad violent familys and there are bad violent families but ...parents didn't turn up threatening teachers in schools.
people would never have dreamed of attacking emergency service crews in the past ...now it's quite common ...no respect ...do anything you want attitude ...even grow your hair down to your arse and the school won't be able to complain cos little johny doesn't have to live by rules.

Former Member

morrocan roll wrote:

we're not talking about a beating.
it's a well defined border where you go to far you feel pain.
but ...you modern people seem to only see pain as negative when in reality it is one of the best teachers we have.

Well it certainly was a beating when My dad was at school. A beating every single morning he went in "because you will need it at some point today and I might not have time later".
I think fear is a terrible teacher.

Former Member

rainbow brite wrote:

Well it certainly was a beating when My dad was at school. A beating every single morning he went in "because you will need it at some point today and I might not have time later".
I think fear is a terrible teacher.

that must have been reform school!
there was no fear at my school.
there was order.
if you went to far though ...you would be sent to stand outside the heads office where you would have to explain ...and then get a whack or two with a cane ...not attacked and beaten and terrified.

Former Member

morrocan roll wrote:

that must have been reform school!
there was no fear at my school.
there was order.
if you went to far though ...you would be sent to stand outside the heads office where you would have to explain ...and then get a whack or two with a cane ...not attacked and beaten and terrified.

It wasnt reform school, it was a normal school in Glasgow, by a teacher who happened to not like my dads older brother, therefore he didnt like my dad from the moment he found out who he was.
In every school you get good and bad teachers, but if you give those teachers powers to hit children with objects, you are going to get abuse - more than if you dont allow them to hit children.

In my school there was no hitting, yet there wasnt violence like we hear about now. i think it must be something else thats the cause, not the lack of hitting.

Former Member

morrocan roll wrote:

the mods and rockers etc were organised meets to have a punch up ...half a dozen a year maybe.
there has always been violence but ...not in schools as there is now.
there has always been violence in the pubs but ...not in schools.
there were bad violent familys and there are bad violent families but ...parents didn't turn up threatening teachers in schools.
people would never have dreamed of attacking emergency service crews in the past ...now it's quite common ...no respect ...do anything you want attitude ...even grow your hair down to your arse and the school won't be able to complain cos little johny doesn't have to live by rules.

I still think you have a rose tinted attitude, not a criticism, its perfectly normal. Yes, some things are worse but some things are far better, as has been pointed out.

Former Member

We need a return to traditional moral values through the restoration of the old pillars of society - parents and family, faith and church, respect for the law and harsher punishments for more minor offences.

Former Member

What does that mean? How do you reconcile that with your support of capitalism?

Former Member

How do you mean? It worked fine in the 19th century.

Former Member

The Matadore wrote:

We need a return to traditional moral values through the restoration of the old pillars of society - parents and family, faith and church, respect for the law and harsher punishments for more minor offences.

People barely follow the church nowadays, and there is more religous diversity than there was in the past.

Former Member

The Matadore wrote:

How do you mean? It worked fine in the 19th century.

Blimey, I thought my history knowledge was weak!

Former Member

Blagsta wrote:

Blimey, I thought my history knowledge was weak!

I think it is, in the 19th century christanity was much stronger that today , and there was a much more La se fair economy.
Its wasnt better than now but those two were combined

Former Member

Iknowyourmum wrote:

I think it is, in the 19th century christanity was much stronger that today , and there was a much more La se fair economy.
Its wasnt better than now but those two were combined

The point is that for Matadore to claim that there was less violence and misery in the 19th century, demonstrates a very weak grasp of history.

Former Member

Blagsta wrote:

The point is that for Matadore to claim that there was less violence and misery in the 19th century, demonstrates a very weak grasp of history.

about the same levels as today really....

Former Member

Iknowyourmum wrote:

I think it is, in the 19th century christanity was much stronger that today

Which is why most industrial cities had ten times as many brothels as churches?

Victorians were very prim and proper, except for most of the time when they were hypocrites.

I've yet to talk to a person who went to school with the cane that didn't get hit at least two or three times.

No broken families? No, pregnant girls were sent to Clacton and forced to hand over their babies. Beaten women had to stay in the home. Raped women hadn't even had a crime committed against them. It depends how you mean "broken"- this happening in the open is better than behind closed doors, IMHO.

Former Member

Iknowyourmum wrote:

But violence is considered acceptable just not by authority figures, society isnt just the law, its the culture and the culture at the moment is that violence is acceptable it works it gets results.

Which is why I've just come home from court with a client looking at 18 months inside for a not-overly-violent road rage incident? Which is why I have to visit a prison to visit a client charged with violent affray?

Obviously the "authorities" don't care about these alleged victims.

What about making children stay in after school as a punishment if this is aceptable then why cant I make you sit in your car with out moving for an hour as punishment if you cut me up ?
What about writing lines a teacher can do that but I cant make you do that can I ?

I don't mean this nastily, but what the heck are you on about?

not pollitically correct

What's political correctness got to do with it?

Do you even know what it means?

Former Member

The problem with discipline in schools is that it just churns out robots. If you look at any great period of expansion, it's done by people learning as they go. Schools just artificially extend childhood and destroy independence.

Which is what they are designed to do.

Obviously the "authorities" don't care about these alleged victims.

Too right. It's about money. if they wanted to make the victim whole they could arrange payments, get the assaulter to pay for counselling or whatever. Instead he's going to be put in a cage and on the stock market, paid for by the very person who he injured in the first place.

Let's say I steal from you and get put inside. Great, now you not only lost your stuff, but now you have to pay for my upkeep for a while too. Fucking nuts.

Former Member

Kermit wrote:

Which is why I've just come home from court with a client looking at 18 months inside for a not-overly-violent road rage incident? Which is why I have to visit a prison to visit a client charged with violent affray?

Obviously the "authorities" don't care about these alleged victims.


I don't mean this nastily, but what the heck are you on about?



What's political correctness got to do with it?

Do you even know what it means?

Obviously youve got more experience with the courts than me, I was mainly talking about schools and what lessons that sends out for whenthey grow up
I dont beleive that all violence is vigorusly punished by the courts I think a lot of people get away with it. I know of people whove been beaten up and the police have done fuck all, the case never made it to court, road rage is public and involves a potential weapond a car.

And what I meant was, you said that teachers shouldne be able to punish children with a smack as I wouldnt be able to do that to you if you cut me up in the car,
But if you punish them with detention or lines, I still wouldnt be able to do that to you

Former Member

Iknowyourmum wrote:

I know of people whove been beaten up and the police have done fuck all, the case never made it to court

The two don't follow, if there isn't any evidence it cannot proceed.

I'd only see the ones that do make it to court, but my in tray is full of affray. Lovely.

And what I meant was, you said that teachers shouldne be able to punish children with a smack as I wouldnt be able to do that to you if you cut me up in the car,
But if you punish them with detention or lines, I still wouldnt be able to do that to you

Because you don't have any authority over me.

The teacher-pupil relationship is similar to the employer-employee one. Should bosses be allowed to cane call centre workers who don't work hard enough?

Former Member

Iknowyourmum wrote:

I think it is, in the 19th century christanity was much stronger that today , and there was a much more La se fair economy.
Its wasnt better than now but those two were combined

..also workhouses, high infant mortality levels, those who didn't die were chimney sweeps.. do I need to go on, or can we remove those rose-tints now?

BTW Attendance at church may have been higher but that doesn't mean that people lived by the teachings. If they did, can you explain why the Victorians treated the colonies so badly?

Former Member

BTW Attendance at church may have been higher but that doesn't mean that people lived by the teachings. If they did, can you explain why the Victorians treated the colonies so badly?

Yeah, a whole set of people with Rich Kid like schizophrenia on those issues. Scary.

Former Member

The point is that for Matadore to claim that there was less violence and misery in the 19th century, demonstrates a very weak grasp of history.

Where did I claim that?

Former Member

The Matadore wrote:

Where did I claim that?

Stop being dishonest.

Former Member

The Matadore wrote:

Where did I claim that?

Well, there was this:

The Matadore wrote:

We need a return to traditional moral values through the restoration of the old pillars of society - parents and family, faith and church, respect for the law and harsher punishments for more minor offences.

and then in reposnse to Blagsta's question about how you reconcile that with your support of capitalism, this:

The Matadore wrote:

How do you mean? It worked fine in the 19th century.

all in the context of a thread about "discipline in schools".

But maybe you just want to return to the "good old days" without giving a damn about the level of violence that went along with it?

I for one, would not be surprised........

Former Member

The Matadore wrote:

How do you mean? It worked fine in the 19th century.

No it didn't.